The All New 2013 LIQUID COOLED R1200GS threadfest

[Basic_Gerd]

Originally Posted by Ricardo Kuhn

So what are you waiting Gerd, Get does "Scans" pronto, ...

Won't put 'em here or on my website, don't wanna be sued .

[Basic_Gerd]

Originally Posted by OConnor

How does a wet clutch save length?

Think of the necessity of having 3 different spaces / volumes:

1. engine oil
2. dry
3. gearbox oil

You can save volume and bring the components closer together if it's only one volume. Whenever you'll see the pictures, it'll become more evident. But it's only personal thinking!

[JustKip]

Originally Posted by Luma46

Most of you for sure remember the HD bringing in 2002 the super modern V-Rod, which is pretty much ignored by the overwhelming majority of HD riders. Guess what would would happen if HD dropped the air cooled engines in favor of modern liquid cooled ....
Same thing with the R boxer engines, people love them the way they are, yes improve whatever can be improved, but do not touch the basic design including the air/oil cooling. Remember my words, if Germans come up with liquid cooling and shim under bucket and other "major improvements" lots of people will start screaming and thing will go back to "normal". Tradition, tradition...

Absurd!
It's just a matter of time for both HD and BMW, and clearly it will be a short time. As noted; there's a lot more wrong with V-rod than liquid cooling...like the 60 degree V-twin. You don't need to hold it up next to a 45 deg engine to notice the difference! It don't look like a Harley engine at all.
A 45 degree engine is a big part of the HD look, and "the motor co" deliberately avoided trying to match the look, just like Hinkley didn't try selling Bonnevilles when they first brought Triumph back to the market. Both wanted the engines to sell on thier own merits.
In '83 BMW introduced thier first liquid cooled engine-the K100. They had a boxer in development years earlier, but Honda beat them to the punch with the GL1000. For BMW to produce a liquid cooled boxer, even 8 years later, would be giving a nod to Honda. So even the newest BMW touring bike has an inline engine, now an I-6.
Back to the original point of liquid cooling; it's going to happen. Period. All internal combustion engines will be liquid cooled for effeciency and to meet increasing clean air standards.
WE won't be going back to steam power. Ever

[Ricardo Kuhn]

Originally Posted by Basic_Gerd

Won't put 'em here or on my website, don't wanna be sued .

But what the both of us do by PM for example, is our private business. And what you do with it from this point on, is yours.

Cool you have a deal, I guess the other will need to wait until somebody else leaks the information.

People better start to sell their 12GS's before is to late and the market is flooded with low horsepower machines.

Originally Posted by Basic_Gerd

Think of the necessity of having 3 different spaces / volumes:

1. engine oil
2. dry
3. gearbox oil

You can save volume and bring the components closer together if it's only one volume. Whenever you'll see the pictures, it'll become more evident. But it's only personal thinking!

Cool concept, It will be interesting to see a wet clutch mount it axially to the crank shaft and right in the middle of a engine, I don't see how in terms of replacement with out taking the engine apart but interesting idea none the less.

In any case I'm with you on this one, I will say keep the bike below a certain Horse power output, Lets say a 100hp with massive torque and then downsize everything to make it lighter, smaller, narrower and more nimble, then again BMW is a "Platform" company where all the engines and chassis are share with the different models (Basically with small changes in production details) so it will never happen, Plus people always want more and MoRe and we all know BMW designs and base on their surveys and marketing department

[SQD8R]

Originally Posted by OConnor

Is the FD issue a QA or design issue?

What are you the new DrABSbrakes?

What are you arguing here? FD , it's been done and there are plenty of other threads to do it in, or water-cooling , or advancing technology?

My opinion on FD is this, it is irrelevant if it is a QA or design issue, if you don't trust it don't buy it. Many learned and many luddites have complained about CANBUS, ABS, FI, linked brakes etc. in the past and the result is always the same imo. Talk with your money, no real point whining about it, what does that change?

The last I will say on this topic, insofar as the FD is concerned, the cause - QA, design, a combination of both or otherwise - the jury is still out (IOW the plethora of testing have proved inconclusive) and obviously based on BMW sales the FD debacle isn't as prevalent as the fearmongers would have us believe. Yes there have been FD issues, that is plainly evident, but it cannot be limited to one model of FD in the BMW lineup or model of BMW. Many models (R11S/R12S/K-bikes) have narry seen a FD issue. It's been done before but take the time to tally the number FD issues reported on this site compared to the number of FD fear and mongering threads. There have been a few surveys attempted here as well and the numbers don't bear fruit esp. when you consider the number of GS sold worldwide, not even 1%. So let's get past this and accept that nothing is infallible in this world. Porsches and HD have been known to leak, Mazda rotaries burn oil, KTM have had water and fuel pumps issues and BMW have had FD issues. My Honda's (RC51) have blown motors after 3,000 from new and (CBR600RR) blown rads at 15,000 km. You want consistent reliability without fail buy a pencil, that's about as good as it gets even with today's advances in technology.

Bottom line, environmental requirements force BMW to move to water-cooling. This isn't new technology like the proven CANBUS nor is it impossible to repair "in the field" so-to-speak. BMW have had much success in every facet of automotive and motorcycling engineering not to mention motorsports. If you don't want water-cooling or don't trust their FD or whatever else the choice is evident, buy something else. There's simply no point in griping over it. They (they being FD and liquid cooling and in general advancing technology) are here, are staying, are immensely successful and are proven technology. Speak with your money, that's what companies listen to, and it's far more constructive and instructive imo.

[OConnor]

Originally Posted by SQD8R

What are you the new DrABSbrakes?

What are you arguing here? FD , it's been done and there are plenty of other threads to do it in, or water-cooling , or advancing technology?

Uh, it was a rhetorical question. I wasn't looking for a synopses on the FD issue.
Never-mind, I understand where you're at.

[gelandestrasse]

Originally Posted by JustKip

Absurd!
It's just a matter of time for both HD and BMW, and clearly it will be a short time. As noted; there's a lot more wrong with V-rod than liquid cooling...like the 60 degree V-twin. You don't need to hold it up next to a 45 deg engine to notice the difference! It don't look like a Harley engine at all.
A 45 degree engine is a big part of the HD look, and "the motor co" deliberately avoided trying to match the look, just like Hinkley didn't try selling Bonnevilles when they first brought Triumph back to the market. Both wanted the engines to sell on thier own merits.
In '83 BMW introduced thier first liquid cooled engine-the K100. They had a boxer in development years earlier, but Honda beat them to the punch with the GL1000. For BMW to produce a liquid cooled boxer, even 8 years later, would be giving a nod to Honda. So even the newest BMW touring bike has an inline engine, now an I-6.
Back to the original point of liquid cooling; it's going to happen. Period. All internal combustion engines will be liquid cooled for effeciency and to meet increasing clean air standards.
WE won't be going back to steam power. Ever

That's petrol powered, not steam powered.

[JustKip]

Originally Posted by gelandestrasse

That's petrol powered, not steam powered.

Yeah. I know, but the steam powered ones actually look less clunky-more elegant


But you get the point. We're not going backward

[Basic_Gerd]

Originally Posted by Ricardo Kuhn

Cool concept, It will be interesting to see a wet clutch mount it axially to the crank shaft and right in the middle of a engine, I don't see how in terms of replacement with out taking the engine apart but interesting idea none the less.

You're right. Changing the clutch is kind of "maximum credible effort" on an oilhead, and it'll be even worse. But on the other hand, the problem "oil leakage onto the clutch" will just vanish...

Originally Posted by Ricardo Kuhn

In any case I'm with you on this one, I will say keep the bike below a certain Horse power output, Lets say a 100hp with massive torque and then downsize everything to make it lighter, smaller, narrower and more nimble, then again BMW is a "Platform" company where all the engines and chassis are share with the different models (Basically with small changes in production details) so it will never happen, Plus people always want more and MoRe and we all know BMW designs and base on their surveys and marketing department

The mag article talks about 125 hp for the GS. I fully agree with mcstark on 100 hp is enough. OTOH, hp and torque (which nobody can have enough of) are not independent. The mag says 125 Nm - that's a nice spin-off.

[SQD8R]

Originally Posted by OConnor

Uh, it was a rhetorical question. I wasn't looking for a synopses on the FD issue.
Never-mind, I understand where you're at.

Rhetorical questions (usually) imply the answer is obvious; you know something we don't know about BMW QA or design of the FD.

[Uncle Pollo]

Originally Posted by Larry Krupa

Some of you may be getting all excited about this, but I see this as analagous to what car companies do with successful cars. They have to "improve" them each year so they make them bigger and clutter them up with accessories that bastardize the concept. While technology improved on the airhead design (EFI is a great example in my view), BMW keeps adding electric this and ring that with servo assisted whatever. I don't want all that. I want a simple, easy to maintian and fixable bike wherever you find yourself. Give me a clutch cable versus hydraulic. I'll take manually adjustable shocks over EWS. Why the hell would you put that ring antenae crap on a bike that you take around the world? Just something else to break!

Sorry, but a radiator is more complexity, something else to go wrong, something that adds to the difficulty (and expense) of service. Yes boxers get hot in traffic, but do I want to add all that crap?

I am not anti improvement. I would take a wet clutch, but only if its more accessible and easier to fix than the current dry single plate clutch. I like the current clutch, but it is not easily servicable anywhere but the dealer.

So some of you may get excited about the radiators, but count me out. I like simple for this kind of bike.

Pick up an airhead GS and be merry then.

[SQD8R]

Originally Posted by PolloAsado

Pick up an airhead GS and be merry then.

[Ricardo Kuhn]

Originally Posted by Basic_Gerd

You're right. Changing the clutch is kind of "maximum credible effort" on an oilhead, and it'll be even worse. But on the other hand, the problem "oil leakage onto the clutch" will just vanish...

Gerd thanks for the pictures, that engine is totally different, Yes changing that Wet clutch is going to be a pain, or at least very messy but Man is so much smaller and compact who really cares

The "Latest and Greatest" freaks better start to sell their current GS's before is to late to trade them in for the newest "Latest and Greatest" thing

The mag article talks about 125 hp for the GS. I fully agree with mcstark on 100 hp is enough. OTOH, hp and torque (which nobody can have enough of) are not independent. The mag says 125 Nm - that's a nice spin-off.

Well if the whole package is smaller, lighter and easy to service, who cares if it has more power than the bikes needs

Thanks again for the awesome pictures, I keep them "Secret" until somebody else leak them first.

[tallguy-09]

I won't sell mine, first ride in 2011 on my 2010, has more power that I can handle :-)

[JStancampiano]

Found this:

http://www.motorradonline.de/de/heft...320/detailbild