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Old 02-11-2011, 01:10 AM   #31
Rob Farmer OP
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Originally Posted by pommie john View Post
If it was 11.5 before, and now it's 12.8, it's leaner. Or are you saying it felt better before at 11.5:1?
Id be interested to see dyno results of the rich/lean tests.
Seat of the pants says it felt better for normal road use when I was hitting 11.5:1 on a full throttle hill climb.

It's going to cost me 60 to get the dyno runs for you. I tend to do most of my messing about with the LM2 unit and then run a dyno every now and then to see how it stacks up. I'm not convinced that dyno tuning actually gives the best results for road use. Seat of the pants results suggest better performance for road use by tuning slightly richer. I'm always open to other points of view and don't mind changing the bike around to try things out, of course the collective wisdom/experience on this site is always welcome.

Rob Farmer screwed with this post 02-11-2011 at 01:19 AM
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Old 02-11-2011, 07:55 AM   #32
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Rob - Thanks for sharing this data with us! Looks like I'm in the market for an LM-2 now. BTW, did you weld a sensor bung to the exhaust? Do you know if a probe is available for temporary use from one bike to the next?
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Old 02-11-2011, 08:42 AM   #33
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Terry,

The optional clamp is a perfect fit for the GS exhaust but it doesn't fit all exhausts. I made my own version of the clamp to fit in other systems.

Using the clamp you do get reversion when you change gear but to be honest it's quite usefull to know. A welded bung in the header is the best option, obviously it's a lot of work for occasional use though.


This is the Innovate clamp. Not cheap but it is well made. My home made one cost next to nothing to make and works just as well.

http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/x...cat=271&page=1

Boetje in New Zealand was getting some good results with his LM2. He'd made a sampling pump to draw exhaust gas to the sensor.

If you want a cheaper alternative theres this one http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/x...cat=273&page=1 gives the same features as Pommie Johns but has the data logging software.

The RPM logging can be a problem on airheads, they chuck out so much electrical noise that it interferes with the RPM readings. Guzzs and other modern bikes work without problems but Airheads and Brit bikes can be a problem.

Rob Farmer screwed with this post 02-11-2011 at 03:22 PM
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Old 02-11-2011, 10:06 AM   #34
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Different loads change everything fuel mixture wise. More load pulls more air up to a point. Some numbers are corrected and others aren't as well. I can't remember if mine are or not.

Comparatively speaking, a big advantage of dyno's is their consistency. They are great for tuning road bikes or any other kind of bike. Sure, they have limitations especially in tuning low rpm performance but they can be a huge time saver. Another problem with dyno's is that there are fundamental differences in dyno design with their own strengths and weaknesses as well as the dyno operator. Even Dynojets don't run themselves. Different operators/tuners can get completely different results as well as different dynos!

More torque is more HP at any given RPM! Trailing throttle, down hill and/or neutral load can make the best setup feel a little surgey. The payoff is more power and better mileage when you are on the throttle which for me is my main concern. Setup is always a compromise. It depends on what you are happy with.

I have no experience with 296 cams but I don't see how your bike could be making over 50hp without a 308? I would time the cam if that was a question. Even timing a cam accurately is easier than pulling one out IMO.

Remember that Dynojets (inertia dyno's) were invented to help dyno jet CV carbs. Full throttle isn't really full throttle until the revs pick up quite a bit with CV's. A load on the engine is a load on the engine. It doesn't matter if the load is from the road or the dyno until consistency comes into the picture. Those CV's don't care!

Good luck Rob. It sounds like you are having fun!

supershaft screwed with this post 02-11-2011 at 10:12 AM
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Old 02-11-2011, 12:13 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Farmer View Post
The optional clamp is a perfect fit for the GS exhaust but it doesn't fit all exhausts. I made my own version of the clamp to fit in other systems.
If I may ask a couple of dumb questions?

1) Is that clamp to allow you to hold the gas analyzer in the end of the exhaust pipe?

2) How close does a bung have to be fitted to the exhaust ports and what difference does the distance from the ports make to the readings?

3) (Assuming the answer to 1 is "Yes"). If holding the analyzer in the exhaust pipe works can a bung welded into a muffler also work suitably?



This is an interesting thread.

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Old 02-11-2011, 02:56 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Lornce View Post
1) Is that clamp to allow you to hold the gas analyzer in the end of the exhaust pipe?

2) How close does a bung have to be fitted to the exhaust ports and what difference does the distance from the ports make to the readings?

3) (Assuming the answer to 1 is "Yes"). If holding the analyzer in the exhaust pipe works can a bung welded into a muffler also work suitably?
1/ Yes - Fits up the pipe similar to the ones the dyno guys use. If you're worried about marking the silencer just put a copper coin under the threaded clamp.



There's no delay using this method. If you look at my Guzzi graph the Air/fuel reading ties in exactly with the RPM readings.

2/ If you welded one to a single downpipe then you would only pick up the air/fuel ratio for that cylinder. There's a two sensor version of the LM2 available for this. I guess the best place for the sensor would be into the collector box just the same as the oilheads. I think the best place to fit a bung would be further down the downpipe, not sure thought because I've only ever had them in the silencer. I'm sure there's something about it on the innovate website.

3/ The sensor needs to be in the gas flow. If you could guarentee it was going to be directly in the gas flow and not stuck behind a baffle then I'm sure it would be fine. If you want it to set up tickover or not have reversion then the furthur you get it into the silencer the better. I like the reversion because it shows the gear changes.

This is the home made sensor mounting I made for using on bikes with awkward silencers.



In my RS silencer



I use a cheap stick on mount (from ebay) to hold the LM2 in place. Makes it easy to switch the record on and off.



As Boetje says the rpm readings can be a pain on Airheads. Innovate have a small filter circuit that works when the RPM pickup is wired directly to the coil primary, This works ok but to be honest you can get the info you need just by watching the gauge and looking at your Rev Meter.

I'm starting to sound like a salesman for Innovate - Just a customer though.

Rob Farmer screwed with this post 02-11-2011 at 03:04 PM
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Old 02-11-2011, 03:24 PM   #37
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My experience with sniffers like that is that the pickup needed to be a lot longer than that for getting a false reading. Probably about twice as long as that.
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Old 02-11-2011, 03:28 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by supershaft View Post
My experience with sniffers like that is that the pickup needed to be a lot longer than that for getting a false reading. Probably about twice as long as that.
I've got a range of pipe lengths for different applications. Just undo the union and clamp in a longer length. The shortest ones are easier to photograph.
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Old 02-11-2011, 03:37 PM   #39
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Well, as long as the picture is good!
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Old 02-11-2011, 08:07 PM   #40
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Thanks Rob, that helps a lot!

Do you have the two sensor system, or read each side separately on the RS?
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Old 02-11-2011, 10:10 PM   #41
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Now that I have seen the pictures. Man those are some contraptions. I have had a couple of friends do the same thing with a little LED graph display that you stick about anywhere. About 2" by 1" and 1/4" thick. Of, course, they had to have a sensor bung in their pipe. If I remember right, the setups cost a bit over $100. One of them had Ron Wood suggested jetting in his Rotax Short track bike and his ATK supermotard. He found out that he was WAY to rich and got some serious free hp out of the deal with both bikes.
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Old 02-11-2011, 11:49 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by BOETJE View Post
Was that Guzzi fitted with an O2 sensor Rob ?
It seems to run quite rich for a fuel injected bike ( unless somebody re-mapped it ) I've done tests on my R1150 RS ( before cat), and the Lamda is near 1.0 nearly all the time ...pretty impressive realy.
Only when whacking open the throttle does Lambda dip to 0.9
It was a 2001 bike so No O2 sensor. Just the airbox mod. The later Guzzis had O2 sensors but there is a criticism that they run too weak causing surging.
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Old 02-11-2011, 11:52 PM   #43
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Thanks Rob, that helps a lot!

Do you have the two sensor system, or read each side separately on the RS?
Single sensor. Move the sensor between the two pipes to make sure there is no significant difference between the two. In reality if the downpipe balance pipes are in place they always read virtually the same readings.
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Old 02-11-2011, 11:58 PM   #44
Rob Farmer OP
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Well, as long as the picture is good!
I'm an Engineer at a University with some of the best measuring equipment available. Do you think it hasn't been double checked for accuracy?

Unfortunately some of the finest automotive minds in the world cannot figure out the jetting for an airhead

Rob Farmer screwed with this post 02-12-2011 at 12:18 AM
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Old 02-12-2011, 12:14 AM   #45
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Now that I have seen the pictures. Man those are some contraptions. I have had a couple of friends do the same thing with a little LED graph display that you stick about anywhere.
That will be using a narrow band sensor. These sensors are designed to fit into the header of an exhaust and need to be very hot to work properly if you put them into the silencer they will not be hot enough and not read correctly. The wideband sensors have their own heater to keep the sensor at the correct temperature so can work in cooler parts of the exhaust or even away from hot gases. They also produce a linear output of 0-5V

The narrow band sensors produce their own voltage so a simple LED display is easy to construct but the output is non linear and temperature dependent. Essentially your mates sensors, if they are using narrow band, are about as much use as a chocolate fire guard. Like this http://www.redline.lt/293/diy-airfue...80&height=1024

Rob Farmer screwed with this post 02-12-2011 at 12:27 AM
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