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Old 02-18-2011, 05:25 PM   #16
PSchrauber
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Originally Posted by tenorjazz View Post
Does anybody know how I can get a couple of "frozen" piston rings off an aluminum piston, without destroying the piston??
Take the piston to your local engine and carb repair shop, they should have an ultra sonic cleaner, this works best without damage.

You will get any other debries stuff that might stick on the piston.
Cost are low only a couple of € / $. I would give them your carb for cleaning too.

Is the piston of the engine still in the spec's and not worn out? Sounds special for me because your Bultaco is an old lady much older then mine and I had serious isues in the engine department and the bike had not been used much, found it in an italian online flea market page, stood between 15 to 20 years in a garage, (a model 199b). All engine bearings,
where rough, piston was to the limit, lot of carbonate everywhere.

Interesting story about your tools, all these things I don't have the space in my garage like blasting, powder coating and where I don't have the skills yet is welding.

Polishing is no problem but very time consuming and messy, I like the result but not the process.

One thing I had to discover, there where some parts that had to be redone by milling and on a lathe. I've got now a milling and drilling machine, (an insrued loss), but still need a small lathe for shims, ...

I will keep on tracking your restauration, very interesting, while I by myself restore my trialsbike.
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Old 02-18-2011, 06:23 PM   #17
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Once I understood how the rings actually go on, I was able to knock them off with a very small cold chisel. I took the tip and was able to catch an edge of the ring and bang it open. I did soak the top of the piston and the rings in Marvel Mystery Oil over night. The rings, with just a little resistance, slid out of the grooves and broke, but that's OK because I wanted to replace them anyway.

I kind of messed up gaping the ring end and took too much off so I had to order a new one. Remember I have to keep thinking metric. Anyway things are on hold with getting the piston so I was torquing and lock tighting some of the bolts and nuts before they got buried under the fly wheel and clutch and so on and sheered a bolt off. So off to the store in the morning to get some kind of extractor tool, also pretty sure I cross threaded this particular bolt, which I rarely do, but when you are screwing steel into aluminum you got to be careful.

I've been pretty fortunate with this motor so far. There is some wear, but in general it's in pretty good condition. I did replace all the bearings and oils seals, but there is one bushing I probably should have replaced but didn't. It's on the kick start gear so hopefully it will be OK.

I don't have a lot of tools to check for tolerances so I'm hoping that because things don't look too worn that means they should work. Since this is going to be a Trials bike and won't be pushing any limits I figure I can be a little more loose on the build. The guy I'm building the bike for doesn't seem to be too concerned about the tolerances.

I got some powder coating on the cylinder body and things are looking pretty good. I'll try to post some more pictures tomorrow.
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Old 02-19-2011, 05:39 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tenorjazz View Post
...
Remember I have to keep thinking metric. Anyway things are on hold with getting the piston so I was torquing and lock tighting some of the bolts and nuts before they got buried under the fly wheel and clutch and so on and sheered a bolt off. So off to the store in the morning to get some kind of extractor tool, also pretty sure I cross threaded this particular bolt, which I rarely do, but when you are screwing steel into aluminum you got to be careful.

...
The metric is fortunatly for me no problem as I live in the metric world, (your feets inches and so on are for me a big problem because they have no math consistance!).

Never trust old and rusty bolts, if they have the bultaco logo on the head or the strengh numbers then it's OK, Bultaco screws have 800 N/mm² the normal one we use here in Europe have printed 8.8 on the head, whitch is also 800 N/mm². Most screws without number stamped on the head have mostly only 400 -500 N/mm² (strengh class in metric 5.6 or 4.6).

Getting in touch with theese and using the torque for higher quality bolts will sheere of the screw.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tenorjazz View Post

I've been pretty fortunate with this motor so far. There is some wear, but in general it's in pretty good condition. I did replace all the bearings and oils seals, but there is one bushing I probably should have replaced but didn't. It's on the kick start gear so hopefully it will be OK.

I don't have a lot of tools to check for tolerances so I'm hoping that because things don't look too worn that means they should work. Since this is going to be a Trials bike and won't be pushing any limits I figure I can be a little more loose on the build. The guy I'm building the bike for doesn't seem to be too concerned about the tolerances.

I got some powder coating on the cylinder body and things are looking pretty good. I'll try to post some more pictures tomorrow.
I also have only limited tools for measuring wear only the basics everyone should have, like a caliper, protractor amd guides. When it comes to bearings I feel the smoothness, when they go smooth and no gap is feelable they are OK if not they have to go.

When I'am unsure I take them to my shop for proper measurement.

Showing some pic's would be nice.
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Old 02-20-2011, 11:22 PM   #19
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The Buls and Montesa's have to be the best looking bikes made back then. I was at a vintage meet and there were a handful of the Spanish iron, really stood out from everything else there.

Jello mold head; haven't seen one of those in years...

It helps to tool up, measuring stuff, it's way cheaper to buy that stuff today than it was back in the day. It saves a lot of time not having to put it together and tear it down to find out if it works.

El Hombre screwed with this post 02-21-2011 at 10:20 AM
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Old 02-23-2011, 12:35 AM   #20
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Quote:
Jello mold head; haven't seen one of those in years...
These early motors have a lot of character!!

Quote:
It helps to tool up, measuring stuff, it's way cheaper to buy that stuff today than it was back in the day.
Prices have really come down on some of this stuff. I have an old Brown and Sharpe Dial Caliper that must have cost over $150 when I got it, that's about $300-$400 in today's money. I saw a cheap little digital caliper for $15 the other day. Just for grins I checked on a new Brown and Sharpe and I could get one for $230.


Been sick for last couple of days so works been pretty slow.

Here's what the motor looked like before I started working on it:





Note: This is actually a different motor, but this is what my motor looked like when I started.

I was putting lock-tite and getting all the case nuts and bolts to the right torque before putting on the clutch, fly wheel, magneto and Drive gear, and broke a bolt. Got a new easy-out set and finally got the bolt out in 3 separate chunks.

So today I got the clutch installed.

Here's the clutch baskets and flywheel before I installed the plates:



The clutch plates are a bit beat up:



I ground off the burrs and cleaned things up the best I could. Hopefully that will be enough to get things working, but I can always go back in and clean that up later, if I need to.

Here's a picture of the finished clutch:


Also powder coated the barrel:




I stuck the barrel and head on just to see what it would look like:






The stand I built to work on the motor:



If I can, I will build the tools I need, like this stand. I also built a tool to help me separate the cases, but I forgot to get a picture of it today.

One of the more difficult things I have had to deal with is getting the bearings off. Couldn't figure out how to build a good puller so I got a cool one from Sears that works really well. The jaws clamp down on the bearing so they don't slip off.



Even more difficult was a tool that could pull a bearing from the inside. I tried to fabricate one from a carriage bolt, but it didn't work, so I got this one from Harbor Freight.



You just slip the right sized end through the center of the bearing, expand it out till it grabs it, then hook the slide hammer on and bang it out. Works Great!!

Still waiting for my replacement ring to come so I can stick the piston on. Things seem to be going together pretty well so I'm hoping it will work when I get it done.

Here's a picture of the swing arm I powder coated the other day. I'm pretty excited at how well the powder coating is coming out. Just for grins I polished the brass bushing on the end and painted a little clear coat over the top.

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Old 02-23-2011, 04:16 PM   #21
PSchrauber
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tenorjazz View Post
These early motors have a lot of character!!



Prices have really come down on some of this stuff. I have an old Brown and Sharpe Dial Caliper that must have cost over $150 when I got it, that's about $300-$400 in today's money. I saw a cheap little digital caliper for $15 the other day. Just for grins I checked on a new Brown and Sharpe and I could get one for $230.


...

So today I got the clutch installed.

Here's the clutch baskets and flywheel before I installed the plates:



The clutch plates are a bit beat up:



I ground off the burrs and cleaned things up the best I could. Hopefully that will be enough to get things working, but I can always go back in and clean that up later, if I need to.

Here's a picture of the finished clutch:


Also powder coated the barrel:




I stuck the barrel and head on just to see what it would look like:



...

If I can, I will build the tools I need, like this stand. I also built a tool to help me separate the cases, but I forgot to get a picture of it today.

One of the more difficult things I have had to deal with is getting the bearings off. Couldn't figure out how to build a good puller so I got a cool one from Sears that works really well. The jaws clamp down on the bearing so they don't slip off.


Still waiting for my replacement ring to come so I can stick the piston on. Things seem to be going together pretty well so I'm hoping it will work when I get it done.

Here's a picture of the swing arm I powder coated the other day. I'm pretty excited at how well the powder coating is coming out. Just for grins I polished the brass bushing on the end and painted a little clear coat over the top.


Very nice work, indeed.

I would try to get new cluth plates, the old ones look worn out.
I'am not sure because I don't know much about the older engines, your cluth plates look very different to the one I had to replace for the model 199b, mine where complete out of steel?

You only change the rings as I understand, piston was in such a good status, then you are a lucky man.

Looks like You did not even had many scratches on the side covers of the engine, this is good too.

Have you done any treatment to the flywheelweight and the clutch case the surfaces of them look so untouched -> no wear marks are visible?

Great work, I would like so see more pic's, thank's for posting.
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Old 02-23-2011, 04:51 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PSchrauber View Post
Very nice work, indeed.

I would try to get new cluth plates, the old ones look worn out.
I'am not sure because I don't know much about the older engines, your cluth plates look very different to the one I had to replace for the model 199b, mine where complete out of steel?
don't know if the 4 speed clutch is different, but i believe stock is all steel, and barnett manufacturers a fiber one.
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Old 02-23-2011, 05:56 PM   #23
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The snows coming down and my shop is not insulated to it's hard to keep warm. On top of that, I have a cold, so my project is on hold till I feel a little better. Not letting this time go to waste, I'm planning a solo trip through Montana and the Dakotas. I'll be riding a BIG dual sport this trip so won't be going too far off road (I probably could, but I won't).

I've been thinking of taking my Matador on a trip like this in future, I figure there isn't anyplace I couldn't go with it. Just concerned about long distance travel on such a bike. 2-strokes don't get very good gas mileage and you have to deal with pre-mixing the gas, so the hassle factor is a little greater. I also wonder how well a bike that is 46 years old will hold up (I'm almost 60 and I know how I feel sometimes), it could be a lot of fun and adventure.

The metal clutch plates were OK on the surface, once I cleaned them off, it was the worn out "tabs" that bother me.



All the rust is gone and the metal is in pretty good shape.

I was told that if you can see the gap between the fiber, the clutch would work OK. I did clean all the gunk out of the fiber material and the plates seem to be grabbing just fine. I'm more concerned that they won't slip enough when I dis-engage he clutch, I might have cleaned them too well.



When I'm feeling better, I might open the clutch up again and shoot some pictures of how well they cleaned up.

My friend Dave, says his clutch is working better that ever and it's almost down to bear metal.

Once I get everything together and give it a try I will know if I need to replace the plates.
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Old 02-23-2011, 06:01 PM   #24
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Do you have any concerns that the powder coating you used on the barrel would retain heat more than a thinner high heat spray paint? I have no experience here it just seems like it may be a barrier to heat. Nice start to your project will be watching with interest.
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Old 02-23-2011, 06:03 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by stainlesscycle View Post
don't know if the 4 speed clutch is different, but i believe stock is all steel, and barnett manufacturers a fiber one.
Yep steel is right, the plates I found where pretty worn, as the rod, and the pressure plate, the ball have left deep marks so I had replace them too:


The engine is complete rebuilded, the sidecases not:




The flywheel is from a Pursang model for getting more live in the engine,
still over 1,4 kg left, the standard fittet to the 199b have 2,9 kg (the one one the right side and a 3,9kg motoplat rotor on the ignition side, (now changed to a 3,4kg Femsa unit), here the flywheel in comparison:



But this is an other engine, don't want to hitchhike this threat, would like to see more about the mid 60's Bulto.
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Old 02-23-2011, 06:15 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tenorjazz View Post
The snows coming down and my shop is not insulated to it's hard to keep warm. On top of that, I have a cold, so my project is on hold till I feel a little better. Not letting this time go to waste, I'm planning a solo trip through Montana and the Dakotas. I'll be riding a BIG dual sport this trip so won't be going too far off road (I probably could, but I won't).

I've been thinking of taking my Matador on a trip like this in future, I figure there isn't anyplace I couldn't go with it. Just concerned about long distance travel on such a bike. 2-strokes don't get very good gas mileage and you have to deal with pre-mixing the gas, so the hassle factor is a little greater. I also wonder how well a bike that is 46 years old will hold up (I'm almost 60 and I know how I feel sometimes), it could be a lot of fun and adventure.

The metal clutch plates were OK on the surface, once I cleaned them off, it was the worn out "tabs" that bother me.

...

All the rust is gone and the metal is in pretty good shape.

I was told that if you can see the gap between the fiber, the clutch would work OK. I did clean all the gunk out of the fiber material and the plates seem to be grabbing just fine. I'm more concerned that they won't slip enough when I dis-engage he clutch, I might have cleaned them too well.

...

When I'm feeling better, I might open the clutch up again and shoot some pictures of how well they cleaned up.

My friend Dave, says his clutch is working better that ever and it's almost down to bear metal.

Once I get everything together and give it a try I will know if I need to replace the plates.
Now after you have already installed all parts, I would give the clutch a chance, I would use good ATF oil and see what happens if it still slip's then IMHO it's time for a replacement. It depends how you want to use the bike, when doing trialsriding a perfect cluth is a must have, if not and it does not slip then it's OK I believe.
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Old 02-23-2011, 06:33 PM   #27
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The powder coating is really thin and, even though you can't see it in the picture, it doesn't go very far between the fins.

I put the coating on without using the static charge because there is this problem that powder is actually repelled if you get to surfaces too close together. Can't remember exactly what it's called, but it's the same things as trying to push the negative ends of two magnets together. I think it works kind of like this... the powder normally gets a positive charge as it goes through the gun and the piece is grounded to make it negative. So normally the powder is attracted to the part and sticks. But if you have two pieces of metal real close together, like between the fins, it will repel the positively charged powder. The "pro" guns pulse the charge between negative and positive so powder will be attracted. The solution, if you don't have a multi-thousand dollar gun, is to heat the part up to 400 degrees and spray without a charge. The powder coat starts melt/cure when it hits the part so it sticks. Another advantage of doing it this way is that you can easily see how thick it is going on.

As far as knowing how thick the powder is, when it's not melting, you can use a gauge of some sort. I made a little piece of aluminum that I can scrap on a part to check thickness, but I usually don't need to use it. I have been making pottery for about 40 years and powder coating is very similar to glaze, when you apply it. Over the years I have learned to judge how thick the glaze is and it's really helped me "feel" how thick the powder coat is.

I've been experimenting pretty heavy over last couple of months trying to get the powder coating to work. If you have any questions I would be glad to pass on what I have learned.
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Old 02-23-2011, 07:17 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PSchrauber View Post
a 3,9kg motoplat rotor on the ignition side, (now changed to a 3,4kg Femsa unit),
which femsa/motoplat ignition flywheel is that???
femsa flywheel= 3.15 lb (1.4kg)
motoplat flywheel= 2.1 lb (.95kg)
points flywheel=3.75 lb (1.7kg)
internal motplat (i haven't got it off to weigh it, but since it's internal, the inertia should be significantly less than even light motoplat)


i had no idea there different weight clutch flywheels. you learn something new everyday. i only have sherpa s/pursangs - they're all the light ones.



Quote:
Originally Posted by PSchrauber View Post

But this is an other engine, don't want to hitchhike this threat, would like to see more about the mid 60's Bulto.
i think you're too late!

i started building a 134 today. got frame in paint and swingarm/front end/wheels on it.
tomorrow is motor rebuild.

should be done in a few days (depending on parts supply...)
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Old 02-24-2011, 08:02 AM   #29
PSchrauber
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stainlesscycle View Post
which femsa/motoplat ignition flywheel is that???
femsa flywheel= 3.15 lb (1.4kg)
motoplat flywheel= 2.1 lb (.95kg)
points flywheel=3.75 lb (1.7kg)
internal motplat (i haven't got it off to weigh it, but since it's internal, the inertia should be significantly less than even light motoplat)


i had no idea there different weight clutch flywheels. you learn something new everyday. i only have sherpa s/pursangs - they're all the light ones.

i think you're too late!

i started building a 134 today. got frame in paint and swingarm/front end/wheels on it.
tomorrow is motor rebuild.

should be done in a few days (depending on parts supply...)
There are some differences between the Sherpas from the 60's to beginning 70's and the Sherpas from the end e 70's to the beginning 80's I think and as I have seen from the pictures that are posted here.

That's interesting for me again, working on the later models.

From displacement, (340 ccm), Gearbox with 6 gears to
a let's call it more radical engine design for trialriding.

While the older models works also good for Trail or Enduro riding,
the "newer" Sherpas are not so comfortable anymore.

Here is a pic of the huge rotor the engine of the model 199b can use,
(and this is the lighter Femsa version):



Do You need the complete Numbers and Spec's of the different rotors???
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Old 02-24-2011, 08:10 AM   #30
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Is there a good Bultaco book? One that explains all the model differences?
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