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Old 03-08-2011, 09:38 PM   #31
brockoli OP
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I haven't made one that meets your mentioned ideas. I can build whatever you would like. The biggest factor is money, the second is time. I can put your name on the list if you would like. I have been asked about adventure outfits a lot lately. The most common question is which enduro/ dual sport bike to use. The answer is none of them. As good as dual sport and enduro bikes are, they lack one thing for extreme sidecar use...horsepower. This is going to cause a storm of replies about how peoples bikes have more than enough power and they don't need to race or speed. I'm not saying you have to. My truck has 400hp, I only use maybe half that to drive around town, if that. but when I fill it up with stuff and go play off road in four wheel drive I know I'm not stressing the motor by over working it, plenty of power when you need it and the driveline is built to handle it and the load. Same applies for a sidecar outfit. We already put more stress on the bikes when we put a sidecar on them. For the most part, they work very well for the job at hand. However....there is room for improvement. You're going to ask, "well, what bike should I use then?". Answer is something with power, who cares what the frame is, aluminum, steel, tube, box section, stressed engine or cradled. Get something with some power. If I were to build one for myself (when time permits, hahaha) I would unquestionably use a ZX-14 (200hp is always nice!). Throw away the swingarm, forks, wheels, suspension and build a cradle frame sidecar outfit (similar to the Triumph I am building now) where the bike and its frame get lowered in to the sidecar chassis. The frame that the suspension mounts to and stresses are totally independent of the stock motorcycle frame work, causing no additional stress on the stock frame. That's how you get away with extra drive line setups, long travel suspension, car wheels and tires, without breaking the frame or having to make the 'performance' parts so spindly small as to not over stress what they are bolting to. Sorry for the long reply. This is how I think rigs of this nature should be built. No struts and adjustment with small sub-frames trying to tie it all together. All this does is move the weak spot somewhere else and you will be forever chasing it. Build it right the first time for anything you want to throw at it. If a basic setup works for your needs, then use it, if you want to go all out, do it all out, don't half build it thinking you can go all out with it. Just my thoughts. So.....if I build 'IT', will 'THEY' come?
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Old 03-08-2011, 10:46 PM   #32
Ricardo Kuhn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brockoli View Post
I haven't made one that meets your mentioned ideas. I can build whatever you would like. The biggest factor is money, the second is time. I can put your name on the list if you would like. I have been asked about adventure outfits a lot lately. The most common question is which enduro/ dual sport bike to use. The answer is none of them. As good as dual sport and enduro bikes are, they lack one thing for extreme sidecar use...horsepower. This is going to cause a storm of replies about how peoples bikes have more than enough power and they don't need to race or speed. I'm not saying you have to. My truck has 400hp, I only use maybe half that to drive around town, if that. but when I fill it up with stuff and go play off road in four wheel drive I know I'm not stressing the motor by over working it, plenty of power when you need it and the driveline is built to handle it and the load. Same applies for a sidecar outfit. We already put more stress on the bikes when we put a sidecar on them. For the most part, they work very well for the job at hand. However....there is room for improvement. You're going to ask, "well, what bike should I use then?". Answer is something with power, who cares what the frame is, aluminum, steel, tube, box section, stressed engine or cradled. Get something with some power. If I were to build one for myself (when time permits, hahaha) I would unquestionably use a ZX-14 (200hp is always nice!). Throw away the swingarm, forks, wheels, suspension and build a cradle frame sidecar outfit (similar to the Triumph I am building now) where the bike and its frame get lowered in to the sidecar chassis. The frame that the suspension mounts to and stresses are totally independent of the stock motorcycle frame work, causing no additional stress on the stock frame. That's how you get away with extra drive line setups, long travel suspension, car wheels and tires, without breaking the frame or having to make the 'performance' parts so spindly small as to not over stress what they are bolting to. Sorry for the long reply. This is how I think rigs of this nature should be built. No struts and adjustment with small sub-frames trying to tie it all together. All this does is move the weak spot somewhere else and you will be forever chasing it. Build it right the first time for anything you want to throw at it. If a basic setup works for your needs, then use it, if you want to go all out, do it all out, don't half build it thinking you can go all out with it. Just my thoughts. So.....if I build 'IT', will 'THEY' come?
Regards,
Brock Smith
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Brock since the first time a saw a replay from you I decide that I like you, hell since the first great picture I decide that I like you, Just check my updated "Signature" (I have never done that for anybody) And this very posting makes it even more concrete that you have a very clear understanding of the many aspects/factors related to this craft.

Yes your prices are going to be one of does "Put Up or Shut Up" kind of scenarios, same as it will be with any high caliber European manufacture charging "Per-Man-Hour", For sure I'm not in the ball park but at least I can be a "Groupie"

For now I can only wish you the very best, I can not wait to see more of your work and learn little by little and maybe some day give you some useful input, Yes I do know some stuff but compare to you I feel like I don't know shit..
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Old 03-08-2011, 11:25 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brockoli View Post
I haven't made one that meets your mentioned ideas. I can build whatever you would like. The biggest factor is money, the second is time. I can put your name on the list if you would like. I have been asked about adventure outfits a lot lately. The most common question is which enduro/ dual sport bike to use. The answer is none of them.
One thing that some of the big displacement dual-sport bikes DO have in their favor as a potential sidecar tug donor is the fact that they either come with, or have available, BIG fuel tanks without the need for complicated auxiliarly tanks, transfer pumps, or carrying a jerry can and spilling fuel over your paint job on the side of a sand dune somewhere...


Quote:
Originally Posted by brockoli View Post
You're going to ask, "well, what bike should I use then?". Answer is something with power, who cares what the frame is, aluminum, steel, tube, box section, stressed engine or cradled. Get something with some power. If I were to build one for myself (when time permits, hahaha) I would unquestionably use a ZX-14 (200hp is always nice!). Throw away the swingarm, forks, wheels, suspension and build a cradle frame sidecar outfit (similar to the Triumph I am building now) where the bike and its frame get lowered in to the sidecar chassis.
We really SHOULD compare notes....
I have been working on the design phase of just such a project for my next rig and have some prelimilary stuff already sketched out for how to do the 2WD relatively simply, and can even incorporate a reverse gear in the mix pretty easily as well.

Of course, I still prefer a more old-school motor with threaded valve adjusters that I can get to without taking half of the engine apart.... And no radiator to lose all of its' precious bodily fluids all over the ground at an inopportune moment when I am too dehydrated to refill it from my bladder 100 miles from nowhere.
So my choice of powerplant is something that I already know and trust, the 110hp BMW R1200 Boxer.
And getting the gearing right can help alot regardless of how much power you have. The German army slogged through some pretty nasty mud with their side-valve R75M's pulling a three-man crew, gear, & sometimes even a trailer. All with only 27hp!!!






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Originally Posted by brockoli View Post
The frame that the suspension mounts to and stresses are totally independent of the stock motorcycle frame work, causing no additional stress on the stock frame. That's how you get away with extra drive line setups, long travel suspension, car wheels and tires, without breaking the frame or having to make the 'performance' parts so spindly small as to not over stress what they are bolting to.
Very similar to what Mobec does with their Duo-Drive and Super-Drive frames I suspect, but taking it one step farther. Adding in the front suspension as well, and a rigid cradle to bolt the bike/engine to.

For suspension, I have been looking at the options between A-arms, leading/trailing swingarms, or a 5-link setup (similar to what sandrails use).
Each have their own advantages and difficulties.


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So.....if I build 'IT', will 'THEY' come?
Regards,
Brock Smith
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If your price is within my budget, YES...
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Old 03-08-2011, 11:52 PM   #34
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Thanks Ricardo, much appreciated.
BMWzenrider, agreed, each have our wish lists and what works for what we want to do. The R1200 is a great machine and powerplant, no doubt. The old military hacks with minimal hp, did the job and did it well. I like to have more hp than needed. ( is it wrong to want a super charger for my truck and to turbo my GS1000?) Great ideas on on the suspension setups. A lot of designs differ with the chosen power transfer (driveshaft, chain, hydraulic, flux capacitors). A-arms don't like chains if the arms are pivoting off the sidecar frame, shafts don't overly care for linked setups unless the driveshaft has a slip yoke or runs perfectly parallel up and down, and that poses problems to. SO many choices, so many options, so many great ideas, never enough time, money, or space. hahaha. Thanks to everyone for the great input and feedback on here. It's great having conversations about a common interest, as strange as our intersts may be, and being able to talk about totally different concepts and not have people think you are some crazy guy in Canada (although I am well on my way, hahaha).

Sitting well outside the box,
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Old 03-08-2011, 11:54 PM   #35
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I think Guys like BoB Pelikan & his RotoHak are on the right track, building a chassis from the ground up and locating the engine where it makes the most sense, Yes on a road going Hack, center of mass is not as critical as it is on a "Dirt traveling" machine

Two wheel drive, A-arm suspension, All the power you will ever need, what else you want....???

Well a Motor seating three feet more forward will be nicer, but who is counting


Also about a year ago Scoot our sidecar guru post a picture of a European sidecar that was ready to compete at the dakar with a similar set up, rear engine, two wheel drive, big tank where the engine used to be but I can not find the picture to save my life..
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Old 03-09-2011, 11:36 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by brockoli View Post
BMWzenrider, agreed, each have our wish lists and what works for what we want to do. The R1200 is a great machine and powerplant, no doubt. The old military hacks with minimal hp, did the job and did it well.
One thing that the boxer powerplant arrangement has over most of the inlines is that nice wide torque curve that starts at pretty low RPM's and just lets it pull strong off the bottom, even if you are lugging it a bit.

Of course, the new BMW K1600 inline-6 blows that concept right out of the water with 75% of its' max torque available from 1,500rpm all the way up to redline.
Now THAT is a powerplant that sounds like it was made for pulling a sidecar!
Compact, powerful, and with loads of torque right from idle...


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I like to have more hp than needed. ( is it wrong to want a super charger for my truck and to turbo my GS1000?)
Not at all, my old R75/HitchHiker rig was just fine, but I lusted after more power which drew me to find a R100RT to mount that lightweight sidecar to. And then I eventually felt the "need" to upgrade to the R1200 rig that I currently have.
I think that some people just begin to crave more speed/power....
{Not that there is anything wrong with that...}


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Originally Posted by brockoli View Post
Great ideas on on the suspension setups. A lot of designs differ with the chosen power transfer (driveshaft, chain, hydraulic, flux capacitors). A-arms don't like chains if the arms are pivoting off the sidecar frame, shafts don't overly care for linked setups unless the driveshaft has a slip yoke or runs perfectly parallel up and down, and that poses problems to.
I agree, every suspension solution has its' own challenges as well as strengths. The trick is to decide which one works best for the purposes that the vehicle is being designed for.

Any shaft driven IRS is going to want some kind of slip coupling at one end to work properly. Either a plunging type CV joint as is common on the inboard end of front-wheel-drive cars or a slip spline CV as used on the 930 CVs which are common in the sandrails and 4x4 community.

Although I have seen one novel sandrail IRS setup which used a rigid shaft drive going through a pair of phased univerals. It uses the rigid shaft as the upper suspension links. No idea how well it worked in practice, but a novel approach!


I am leaning towards using the 930 CV's in my design because of the relatively high working angle that they are capable of, and how commonly available they are.
Also, they are a flange mount model, which means easy removal/replacement in the field if required. You could carry a spare joint & boot pre-greased in a sealed zip-lock and replace a failed joint relatively easily out in the boonies if you were on an adventure trip and find a replacement spare in the next big town. (or at least get one ordered in without much drama...)

Also, because the sandrail and 4x4 community is starting to standarize on this size joint there are sources for wheel hubs with this flange/spline readily available in the aftermarket as well as lists compiled of what production hubs work with it. (Easier sourcing of parts...)
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Old 03-12-2011, 09:16 AM   #37
Ricardo Kuhn
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Brock where did you go...?
We want to see more cool pictures and projects but more important read about your ideas and concepts since they make so much sense.

So what do you think about "Three wheel drive" using a "A-arm" type set up like the rotohak...??
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Old 03-12-2011, 10:30 AM   #38
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Hi, I'm here, been really busy on the Triumph, working late on it. Front fender is on, rear fender/plate mount/taillight mount all done, exhaust is on, saddle bags mounted and supported, blah blah blah. I'll have some more pics of it in the Facebook link, check often.
As for a 3 wheel drive unit... The front wheel driving has always been an issue. Think of a 4x4 truck on the street in 4 wheel drive. It scrubs hard in the corners and drifts wide through high speed corners. No doubt in the dirt that you wold have great traction and drive, but there are a lot of down falls to the front wheel driving. If you put a viscous coupler in line to the front wheel, then it's a different story. Subaru and others have that setup, it works well for sure, but I don;t think that a high performance rig for all terrain would overly benefit from all that. Let the front wheel steer, maybe consider steering the sidecar wheel that is also driven. It's a whole can of worms that needs to be opened carefully or else you get a bunch of cool stuff and ideas that don't work together. Using a car engine...great, Bob's rig is really cool and well thought out. Size for size though, you can get more hp out of a smaller package with bike engines, it's just the final drive is always a tough one to get right. You can relatively easily get 400+ hp out of 1300cc of bike engine. The rotory's are capable of that too but in a bigger package with more weight. And once you get the weight and traction where you want it, it wheelies. You can see the wheelie bar on his rig, sidecar side only. Anyone who has wheelied a sidecar outfit, especially a 1 wheel drive unit, knows it's a scary situation. Makes for turning in parking lots easy though . Without going full computer traction sensor control with adjustable diff's and so on and so on, there is only so far you can go before you have to incorporate a lot of technology to help you out. And who writes transmission programs for 3 wheeled, 2 wheel drive, 1 wheel steered vehicles?? They are a strange breed for sure.
Keep checking on pictures. I'll load some more up either tonight or tomorrow. Keep the ideas rolling guys, you may persuade my yet
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Old 03-12-2011, 12:42 PM   #39
Ricardo Kuhn
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Hi, I'm here, been really busy on the Triumph, working late on it. Front fender is on, rear fender/plate mount/taillight mount all done, exhaust is on, saddle bags mounted and supported, blah blah blah. I'll have some more pics of it in the Facebook link, check often.
Come on Dude quit been a El Chepo skater act and get your self a smugmug account or if you like send me the pictures on a email and I post them on my own gallerys so you can post them her full size, Facebook is for "Kiddos" when it comes to Business time to be a BigMan now...:-)
Quote:



As for a 3 wheel drive unit... The front wheel driving has always been an issue. Think of a 4x4 truck on the street in 4 wheel drive. It scrubs hard in the corners and drifts wide through high speed corners. No doubt in the dirt that you wold have great traction and drive, but there are a lot of down falls to the front wheel driving. If you put a viscous coupler in line to the front wheel, then it's a different story. Subaru and others have that setup, it works well for sure, but I don;t think that a high performance rig for all terrain would overly benefit from all that. Let the front wheel steer, maybe consider steering the sidecar wheel that is also driven. It's a whole can of worms that needs to be opened carefully or else you get a bunch of cool stuff and ideas that don't work together.
As usual your words are full of wisdom, what about running some kind of "Interrupter" so the front wheel drive is totally disconnected from the transmission until you need it (just thinking out loud here) in any case you are by far the only builder in this side of the ocean that even considers the possibilities and that is very telling at least in my book

Here is a example of a three wheel drive and I have to agree it looks kind of clumsy, but far better than that Ural on the video than that Ural with the "El Chepo PTO" running parallel to the length of the bike restricting the turning radius among all kinds of wrongs things.
Quote:



Using a car engine...great, Bob's rig is really cool and well thought out. Size for size though, you can get more hp out of a smaller package with bike engines, it's just the final drive is always a tough one to get right. You can relatively easily get 400+ hp out of 1300cc of bike engine. The rotory's are capable of that too but in a bigger package with more weight. And once you get the weight and traction where you want it, it wheelies. You can see the wheelie bar on his rig, sidecar side only.
"400+ hp out of 1300cc of bike engine" How with four Turbos, a super charger and nitrometane

Just kidding, But don't you think the poor thing will be under a lot of stress, don't you think is better to get a tuned VW and/or even better a Subaru engine and start from there, they are already making sick power on their rally cars, hell even the stock engines are more than plenty
Quote:



Anyone who has wheelied a sidecar outfit, especially a 1 wheel drive unit, knows it's a scary situation. Makes for turning in parking lots easy though . Without going full computer traction sensor control with adjustable diff's and so on and so on, there is only so far you can go before you have to incorporate a lot of technology to help you out. And who writes transmission programs for 3 wheeled, 2 wheel drive, 1 wheel steered vehicles?? They are a strange breed for sure.
We reach. (well some members did and I agree) that the "Wheelie bar" is more a device to account for the frame flexing than from the front wheel lifting, but you are right, that engine will provide plenty of trouble to burn out does tires from san francisco to new york with out complain.


Quote:
Keep checking on pictures. I'll load some more up either tonight or tomorrow. Keep the ideas rolling guys, you may persuade my yet
Regards,
Brock Smith
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Old 03-16-2011, 07:03 AM   #40
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My mind = blown.

Found you from Ricardo's suggestion. Wow, incredible work.
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Old 03-16-2011, 12:11 PM   #41
Ricardo Kuhn
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My mind = blown.

Found you from Ricardo's suggestion. Wow, incredible work.
I'm glad I can get another head spinning, this is some impressive work, even the simple things like the "Hitch mounts" are amazingly elegant and clever (his father work if I understand correctly)

I'm just glad we have such a "Cutting Edge" shop on this side of the Atlantic
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Old 03-25-2011, 07:28 PM   #42
Ricardo Kuhn
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Brock first of all sorry about your Gato

So any new progress on your works

Do you want to send me pictures so I can post them on my own smugmug gallery and then posted here...
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Old 04-01-2011, 10:22 AM   #43
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Hi guys,
Been super crazy busy in the shop, late nights, the usual. I'm getting a smugmug setup here so I can post the pics in it. Thanks for the generous offer though R-K. Build update... fenders on (all 3), aluminum light boxes for the LED's fabricated and mounted, saddle bags modified and installed, jack shaft is currently being done (just waiting for 1 more part for it). Then, take it all apart, brace and weld it all up, reassemble, test ride test ride test ride, disassemble, powder coat and paint, reassemble, give to VERY PATIENT customer to enjoy for a long time. I'll let you all know what the smugmug link as soon as its all done.
Thanks for checking in,
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Old 04-01-2011, 10:31 AM   #44
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oh ya, a bumper too for the front of the hack, some wiring, brake line plumbing and a few other little odds and ends
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Old 04-06-2011, 11:50 PM   #45
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Not done with Smugmug yet, but I did throw a bunch of BMW trike pictures and some more of the Triumph Adventurig in the Facebook albums. Check'em out!
Have fun,
Brock Smith
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