TIME-SERT® on GSPD head bolt

[JZed]

Originally Posted by datchew

timeserts are simply a newer iteration of the old threaded insert (helicoil is a brand name) technology.
There are many flavors of them. alot are solid inserts instead of threaded coils.

the keys to making it work in this application are (off the top of my head):

1. correct material to suitably match the parent material
2. machining work done perfectly normal to the flange surface
3. correct depth of insertion of the insert or else properly sized (# of threads) insert
4. if it has a flange on it, machining or blending it off or cutting a relief in the case
5. depending on the stud, ensuring that the oil feed hole is not blocked as a result of the repair

No. 5. As manufactured, there is a groove just out side of the major diameter that runs the length of the threaded holes in the block for the top cylinder studs. it feeds the oil that lubricates the rocker arms etc. As has been mentioned there are commerical jigs for installing helicoils and also one that uses a solid thread insert. If I remember correctly, the jig for the solid insert has an additional jig to re-establish the oil passage before the solid threaded insert is installed. When a long helicoil is installed past the oil gallery, the oil can feed up in the spiral gap at the mid diameter of the helicoil. (same as the gap between the coils of a spring).

If a time sert is used which has a solid wall and a flange, how is the flow of oil going to be established, lest Curly Mike fixes one problem and creates another, ie, no oil to the rockers.

Best to fix it right, especially if you are doing it your self. DAMHIK.

JZed

SC

'86 R80
'92 R100GS
'06 KLR640

[Stagehand]

Originally Posted by Beemerguru

The cut off bottom of an old cyklinder makes a perfect jig for drillig a straight hole.

BMW sells a longer version of the time cert specifically for this application..already impregnated with sticky stuff so it won't come out.

All the studs should measure the same distance from the case. exactly 10" if I remember right.

Check to see if the bottom holes go all the way into the case..not in front of an engine right now. I know the top ones don't but seem to remember the bottom ones do so you have to watch for shavings from drilling and tapping.

Easy fix with the right size drill and tap.

yeah but oddly not all of the studs are the same length.

[Xcuvator]

Here is a link that may be of some help. I thought it covered the procedure pretty well:
http://boxerworks.com/forum2/viewtop...er+stud+repair

[Bill Harris]

Originally Posted by CurlyMike

Thanks for that, I am planning on using an old cylinder that has some bad pitting to put off and make as the jig...

Good-- a drilling jig is a necessary tool.

On the insert length, use as long as you can-- measure the threaded depth of the hole. My /5 takes 20mm inserts. With Timeserts, you'll use the standard Timesert insert. On my repairs, I had to use the larger diameter "Bigsert" since I had a couple of 25-year old thread repairs fail and had to re-repair the thread.

Long story, chain of events, don't ask.

The Timeserts have a shoulder at the outer side of the insert that the insert "seats" on, and the kit has a counterbore tool to get the insert face below the surface level. The two upper studs on each side have an oil passage/drilling that supplies oil to the rocker arms. You won't get into that with your lower stud repair, but if you do any top stud, don't block the oil passage. With the Timesert simply grind a bevel on that top shoulder-- that, and the counterbore, should give enough clearance to flow enough oil for the rockers.

Questions? Just ask, and take pictures.

[supershaft]

Originally Posted by Big John Sny

I use both, never had any failure of either. I believe both are a significant improvement over the original parent material if done properly. Gm only let us use those for repairs because they (time serts anyways) showed improved strength even over the original cast iron block material for even critical (head bolt/main bolt). I had no failures on PPAP test engines and they do some pretty extreme testing on engines. I dont think he has any worries whichever route he chooses.

BTW: My Gixxer had inserts in the aluminum frame from Suzuki. As has been mentioned, 10 different people will have ten different opinions if you listen long enough.

I don't have much experience repairing cast iron threads.

What kind of inserts?

I might have seen some Timesert type insets in frames now that you mention it? I was thinking of and talking about engines. I have never seen a factory installed Timesert type in a motorcycle engine.

[supershaft]

Originally Posted by CurlyMike

Thanks SS, I might be a bit sensitive about it as well. I have waited 9 months to ride it and now have to wait some more. Its better than riding it for several weeks and finding out it has issues.

Thanks for the info, thats what I was hoping for. I am going to order both so that we dont have to wait for the right one...

Coil inserts have two issues that are often walked right into: Too short of an insert overloads what little threads there are. Too long of an insert exposes the beginning and end of the insert to start pulling out. Each end needs to be adequately within the insert's threads or they are likely to pull out. Unfortunately, the length should be just so.

[Beemerboff]

If you have a wire insert in the top front of a GS which is stripped what size of Timesert, or Bigsert do you need, and is it possible to use the Cycleworks jigs to install the larger Timesert- they are half the cost of the Timesert outfit.

[Big John Sny]

Originally Posted by supershaft

I don't have much experience repairing cast iron threads.

What kind of inserts?

I might have seen some Timesert type insets in frames now that you mention it? I was thinking of and talking about engines. I have never seen a factory installed Timesert type in a motorcycle engine.

Several of the repairs required kits specifically for the application. Like Gen 3 head bolts. The threads for the bolt don't start untill you are a couple of inches down into the hole (the depths change for differnt bolts on thew block as well as different year models).
http://www.timesert.com/html/gen3HEA...structions.pdf

Time-sert offers the kit to do this directly now. If I am remembering right, we had to source this through Kent Moore at the time. Looks like they offer manufacturer kits for different companies including BMW, but looks only like BMW automotive.

[bgoodsoil]

Sorry to hear it, man. Thanks for starting the thread. I'm sure I'll run in to this on mine some day and now I've got something to refer to.

[Beemerguru]

Yep, 2 are longer and go in either the 2 left or right side forward holes..not in front of an engine right now so someone please verify which.

But for ALL studs, the case-to-stud end distance is the same.

Originally Posted by Stagehand

yeah but oddly not all of the studs are the same length.

[supershaft]

Originally Posted by Big John Sny

Several of the repairs required kits specifically for the application. Like Gen 3 head bolts. The threads for the bolt don't start untill you are a couple of inches down into the hole (the depths change for differnt bolts on thew block as well as different year models).
http://www.timesert.com/html/gen3HEA...structions.pdf

Time-sert offers the kit to do this directly now. If I am remembering right, we had to source this through Kent Moore at the time. Looks like they offer manufacturer kits for different companies including BMW, but looks only like BMW automotive.

BJS, it sure is nice talking about inserts with you since we kind of disagree but we are still talking about inserts and not each other in a negative way! I think it helps that we are both making sense!

Anyway, I wanted to mention costs. Coil inserts are standardized. They are not the proprietary property of Helicoil. You can save a LOT of money getting other brand inserts, taps, and whatnot from other sources besides Helicoil!

[Beemerboff]

Answering my own question, but if you have a stripped helicoil already which needs replacing Cycleworks can supply you with the correct Timesert and a jig to suit - you just have to ask -----.

t

[supershaft]

How do the stud o-rings work with a Timesert large enough to repair a striped coil insert?

[Stagehand]

Originally Posted by supershaft

How do the stud o-rings work with a Timesert large enough to repair a striped coil insert?

AS long as the out diameter of the time sert hole doesnt go outside the dimensions of the o-ring recess in the cylinder it should still hold oil, right? The o-ring compresses against the OD of the recess, and against the case, so it seems like it would work unless the TImesert bore is unseemingly large.

[supershaft]

Unless the Timesert bore was unseemingly large? To repair a stripped out coil cert? That IS an unseemingly large bore.