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Old 05-21-2013, 08:21 AM   #856
SOLO LOBO OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ontic View Post
Gage- what is longer term verdict on your front end rebuild
Well, I have been limited on the number of miles I have been able to hit, and haven't gotten away to hit any dirt. Dropping the clamps down the tubes 10mm got rid of the head shake I was occasionally seeing at about 70mph on our very poorly paved freeways....

I don't have sidwalks in my 'hood and have been riding through the unpaved shoulders and right through any big cuts and drops... the big hits don't effect the front end at all, so I am very please with that.

On my ride to work yesterday I noticed the cavitation on the small bumps seems much better after changing the settings on my rear shock. Overall I would like the front a bit more plush than it is now and am going to ride more miles and see how it developes then get back to Konflict Motorsports for more advice.

I need to get in some dirt soon, before I head to the BMW National in July and do a ton of it!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stagehand
your bike is suitably dirty. Well done.

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Old 05-21-2013, 10:05 AM   #857
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Quote:
Originally Posted by naginalf View Post
I think a better question here is, what's so different about our bearings than the KTM stuff that survives much greater abuse with these parts?

I've posted way too much about bearings lately so I'll be brief.
this is my understanding of it. I may be wrong and await correction.

Greater or lesser 'abuse' is determined by a lot of factors, weights, bike geometry, bearing design, use, etc, etc, etc, not just 'dirt bike' verses 'road tourer' or something like that. It is way more complicated and relates more to the actual loads the bearings experience and their abilities to deal with them. Thus it is perfectly conceivable that the average loaded down airhead tourer on its travels may get signifiantly worse bearing 'abuse' than a midweight ktm dirtbike thrashing through a trail. Especially considering abuse that results in bearing wear may more result from things like improper adjustment (comparitively more difficult on most airheads), lack of lubrication and water damage. Either way the bearings and their application are different and what we are really talking about is the stem and blind nut...

The KTM bearings have a smaller contact angle, and they are also a good bit lighter weight construction (shorter thinner rollers, etc, just a smaller lighter bearing).
The angle of a tapered roller bearing determines its abilities to deal with radial and axial loads in a sort of ratio- the steeper the contact angle (ie bmw bearing) the greater the ability to deal with axial or thrust loads. The shallower the contact angle (ktm) the greater the ability to deal with radial loads. This contact angle also relates to how loads are transferred into the stem and bearing assembly. I imagine various things go into the choice of a particular contact angle bearing for this application, most notably the weights and geometry (rake etc) involved- though who knows, maybe they pick them out of a hat
ie, left to right, is smaller to steeper contact angle



The steeper the contact angle the larger amount of torque is required to preload the bearing properly. How much preload is a whole nother subject but this basic relationship shouldn't change, especially in this application. And this is where the differences start to matter.

The basic difference in our parts between KTM and BMW is the bearings and the stem and blind nut. We have a stem and blind nut designed to torque the KTM bearings, and deal with the loads so transferred, and we are using it on our BMW bearings which want more torque, and transfer their own loads.. Engineered redundancy, one would think, should have covered for minor changes like this, and maybe with the older 20mm thread blind nut it does- the shorter 8mm blind nut I am not so sure of, and wether or not it is up to to task in the long term is up for debate, just tightening it up to the torque that feels like it preloads my bearings enough does not feel good at all- my belief is it is cutting it too fine and I can feel or imaging I feel the aluminium threads stretching.

That is my basic theory and thoughts on the matter.

Jenna's case of screwing her stem thread is kinda unique, and may or may not be the best example to go by, but at the very least I think it demonstrates how little redundency we have in this set-up and application, and most of us airhead owners probably like a bit of redundency

For me, just using one of the older longer threaded blind nuts (easily available in aluminium used, or steel DIY) eases my worries, and threading the KTM stem deeper and using an even longer blind nut (like Jenna has done) would completely erase them, again, for me.


Gage,
headshake at higher speed? Sounds kinda like too little trail and reduced 'steering stability'... with our axle offset combined with the triple offset we should by my calcs be running a fair bit less trail than stock geometry... however, dropping the clamps down the tubes reduces trail even further, so if that feels better then it probably wasn't the problem in the first place...
I'm no help
you might be right trying to fiddle with the rear shock.

Either way, I am looking forward to how it turns out.
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Old 05-21-2013, 11:39 AM   #858
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Hmm, interesting, I didn't think there'd be that much difference, but that makes perfect sense, thanks Ontic. With a shallower angled bearing, it's easier to set the preload, which is really what that nut is for anyway, not holding the bike up, the clamps do that work. Perhaps it would work better in our case to use a large clamp to load the bearings, then tighten the nut to the proper torque. Here's another thought; the entire thing is hollow, even the bolt. Let's just run a steel bolt through the entire thing and eliminate the load on the aluminum nut entirely; problem solved.

Btw, what IS the proper torque for not only the blind nut, but the clamps on these triples?
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Old 05-21-2013, 12:19 PM   #859
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KTM LC8 Factory Service Manual 2003-2006
Checking/adjusting the steering head bearing – Try to move the fork back and forth in an unloaded condition. If you feel any clearance, loosen the 5 clamp bolts on the top triple clamp and turn in the blind nut 1 until no clearance (play) is left. 1 NOTE: do not tighten the blind nut since you may damage the bearing. – Gently tap on the top triple clamp with a plastic hammer to relieve any distortion and tighten the 5 clamp bolts (tigtening torques see technical data). Checking all chassis bolts for force fit NOTE: check the bolts listed below with a torque wrench. If a bolt Repair manual KTM LC8 secured with Loctite 243 is not tightened to the specified torque (if it can easily be screwed in further), remove the bolt, clean, secure with Loctite 243 and tighten to the correct torque.
and

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scotts steering damper install guide for 950/990 ADV
Remember the main nut on your KTM adjusts the tension on your head bearing. Do not over tighten the nut.
It should be seated just enough to be sure the triple clamp is all the way on and then backed off to a point where all the
play is out of the bearing. Tighten the fork pinch bolts, and the 8x25mm main stem Allen pinch bolt, only after the tension on the main nut is correct.
I still don't think that bolt should get tightened any more than "snug".
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Old 05-21-2013, 03:52 PM   #860
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So, shakedown run today. Did about 200miles dirt, and gravel......and some nasty mud. Felt great, felt better than it ever has.....I think that's in my head.??? So Terry turned my stem down to a press fit within 1/1000ths, with is less than the original I received from Guy. I'm not recommending that, but so far so good. I'll keep checking them every month. Torqued to 8/ftlbs on the hardware store bolt. Top clamp at 20, and bottom at 15. I was on some good washboard roads, and some new gravel roads....a good way to check the head bearings. On the center stand, the bars turn with a small nudge. I'm back in business. Still not sure on the cost of the stem. He's moving shops and hard to get a hold of right now.
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Old 05-21-2013, 08:15 PM   #861
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hardwaregrrl View Post
So, shakedown run today. Did about 200miles dirt, and gravel......and some nasty mud. Felt great, felt better than it ever has.....I think that's in my head.???
Great to hear.
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Old 05-21-2013, 08:16 PM   #862
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alright, one more time...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Airhead Wrangler View Post

I still don't think that bolt should get tightened any more than "snug".
Duly noted, again, and there are plenty of people who claim that about TRB's in this application all over the place, so just repeating your thought and quoting more of them them doesn't really prove much. Most of the listed torque figures in manuals seem to disagree. I'd love to hear your actual reasoning, and maybe some sort of actual figure. You seem to be advocating as an ideal zero clearance (which in the real world could sit just on either side of zero), or at most a tiny fraction of negative clearance (preload)? Would that be right?

Ktm's tightening torque figures themselves disagree with that quoted text of yours, and want 7.4 ft lb with their lower contact angle bearings. That is significantly more than "snug".


BMW proceedure on the bearings we are actually using seems to disagree too, snowbum references 2.5 ft lb of torque to continue to turn the stem once it is already moving. That is bearing resistance created by preload. And it should be as our bmw method of adjusting bearings goes beyond "snug" and provides preload.

The Scotts don't tighten it at all or you'll damage the bearing claim is an interesting one, and again oft repeated. How is it that a tiny bit of preload on one of these bearings, designed to deal with high axial loads, is going to damage it? How is it that the actual use of the bearing (eg landing a jump) wouldn't transfer significantly more loads (axial and radial) into the bearing? Or is this meant to be a cumulative thing, where it now can't take the loads in use because of that extra preload at the start?

Even though play destroys TRB's, why is it that we barely preload or even set some clearance for most (tapered roller) wheel bearings, and why is it that in their normal use this has virtually no relevance to this application? What happens to properly set up wheel bearings in a car (ie mostly with a little bit of clearence) (or any bearings with clearance in any machine) when the car (or machine) is transported on a truck or train or something that for a long time bumps and vibrates along as the shafts remain in the same position? Does this have any relevance to insufficient preload in our headstems?


Digging through the bearing literature is a bit of a bore and a bit hard to find stuff related even closely to this sort of application- a bearing that only ever rotates 90 degrees or so in its entire operating life, experiences most of its loads within maybe 10 or 15 degrees rotation, and experiences virtually no heat or thermal expansion throughout the assembly. However there are lots of interesting bits that can be extracted.

some basics from here, capitals not mine (p5-41 to p5-42)

Quote:
Since all engineering components deflect to some extent under load, shaft bearings
which have been set up with zero clearance when there is no load on the shaft will
almost certainly have some clearance or slackness when the shaft has a load
applied. This is true whether the load on the shaft is radial, axial or a combination
of the two. This clearance when running, which results in unnecessary wear of the
bearings, can in many cases be overcome by PRELOADING the bearings.

The outer races of the
two tapered-roller bearings are located in the BEARING HOUSING. They cannot
come closer together because each race is against a shoulder in the housing. The
bearing inner races are mounted on the shaft. The right-hand inner race bears
against a shoulder on the shaft. The left-hand inner race is held axially by the
washer and nut on the end of the shaft. Tightening the nut will therefore push the
two inner races closer together, squeezing them into the tapered outer races. Initial
tightening of the nut will take up all the CLEARANCE in the bearing assembly.
Further tightening of the nut will provide bearing PRELOAD. Preload may be
regarded as negative clearance. Ideally, the preload should be sufficient to ensure
that the bearings do not run slack (i.e. with clearance) under normal operating
conditions, since clearance is known to increase the rate of wear of tapered roller
bearings. However, too much preload may result in excessive loading and
overheating of the bearing.
We need to bear in mind that most of these references, that one included, are looking at bearings that actually rotate and heat up, and whose clearances are likely to decrease in use, but even in those conditions preload is often a desirable thing to deal with deflection and play related wear (and for other reasons).

Overheating related wear will NOT be a problem for our bearings. EVER. Clearance related wear IS a problem. Once in-use-loads are introduced, plastic deformation of bearings, deflection, elasticity of shaft, etc, will turn zero clearance and too low preload into conditions of clearence and related wear.
This is what preload on these bearings is for. Our greater contact angle bmw bearings should require more torque to be properly preloaded than the smaller contact angle KTM bearings that call for 7.4 ft lb.

Tapered roller bearings deal just fine with appropriate preload. In fact they like it. With axial and radial loads, especially such as experienced flogging a bike over a corrugated bumpy road, what they don't like is play, or when they rotate fast too much preload and heat related wear (which might be as simple as lubrication destruction) and excessive overloading which may result from thermal expansion of assemblies.

By putting longer stiffer forks on our bikes, also by bracing of frames etc, and riding them hard, we are directing even more loads into our steering bearing assemblies (which aside from swapping a rigid steel stem and nut for a more elastic aluminium set- which will contribute to more deflection -have not been changed) and thus creating more conditions where 'normal-use' loading will overcome our preload and will create bearing clearance and related wear.

At the very least we should be applying bmw's spec for preloading their bearings- that is kinda difficult and pointless to do with our now very simple set up that we can torque from the top nut, and 'feel' and fallaway are very fallible. So, at the very least we should be preloading this nut something greater than KTMs torque spec (for a smaller contact angle bearing) wich is 7.4 ft lb and significantly greater than "snug".
At the very most we should be applying bearing preload to just below the point where it provides any negative handling characteristics. Below this point, but as close to it as is feasible.
These bearings will continue to be a wear item, and their purpose is to provide nice smooth steering- NOT maximum bearing life, but failing to preload them enough will lead to more rapid wear and notchy bearings and bad handling all that much quicker.

That is my understanding of it that I have gathered from a few forays into the bearing literature and my own practical and thought experiments. I've stated it kinda strongly so I can put it out there for actual critique.
I think there is a lot of bad info regarding these bearings in these applications.
Feel free to adress and argue these points, I'd happily be proven wrong, and I might very well be, but you are going to need more than the word "snug" to do it
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Old 05-21-2013, 08:40 PM   #863
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Take a minute to consider what you're saying. You can't compare KTM's torque spec with BMW's. What really matters isn't the torque - it's the axial load placed on the bearing. Since BMW's stem has different thread pitch from KTM's, the torque specs are not comparable as the same torque applied to both will result in different amounts of preload. Also, I'm not sure we're really disagreeing here. You're saying "snug" is not enough and that you need 7 ft lbs of torque. I'd consider 7 ft-lbs to barely any more than snug if at all. That's what sump bolts get torqued to. Not much at all.
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Old 05-21-2013, 09:35 PM   #864
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Airhead Wrangler View Post
Take a minute to consider what you're saying. You can't compare KTM's torque spec with BMW's. What really matters isn't the torque - it's the axial load placed on the bearing. Since BMW's stem has different thread pitch from KTM's, the torque specs are not comparable as the same torque applied to both will result in different amounts of preload. Also, I'm not sure we're really disagreeing here. You're saying "snug" is not enough and that you need 7 ft lbs of torque. I'd consider 7 ft-lbs to barely any more than snug if at all. That's what sump bolts get torqued to. Not much at all.
I haven't dropped by for a while but exactly. What preload a torque spec sets all depends on thread pitch, temp, grease, cables, and the list goes on. Preload torque specs are about as gray as 'snug' for those reasons. Different bearings have different tapers. Some bikes are running sealed ball bearings. They take different preload too. Whatever is right is right. There is absolutely no concrete way to nail it down any better than that.

The pinch bolt on the stem helps transfer loads to the stem just like they do for the fork tubes. Someone said all new big bikes have that. Not even close to all new big bikes from what I can tell. Something to mind while adjusting preload but other than that preload is preload?

Someone was wanting to compare forks from one set of trees to the other to see if the trees were the cause of some stiction. Perfect trees can cause all sorts of stiction depending on how they are setup. It's not just the trees but very much tightening everything down as well (the setup).
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Old 05-21-2013, 10:16 PM   #865
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Airhead Wrangler View Post
Take a minute to consider what you're saying. You can't compare KTM's torque spec with BMW's. What really matters isn't the torque - it's the axial load placed on the bearing. Since BMW's stem has different thread pitch from KTM's, the torque specs are not comparable as the same torque applied to both will result in different amounts of preload. Also, I'm not sure we're really disagreeing here. You're saying "snug" is not enough and that you need 7 ft lbs of torque. I'd consider 7 ft-lbs to barely any more than snug if at all. That's what sump bolts get torqued to. Not much at all.
I've taken well over a minute to consider things, what I am saying, and how to try to say it, I'd ask you do the same.
(Despite us not actually having a BMW figure to torque a top nut like the top nut we are using) Your point about thread pitch is valid, IF we were using a bmw stem with KTM bearings, however our stems are KTM stems with KTM pitch. That stem and pitch calls for 7.4 ft lbs on their KTM smaller contact angle bearings. This is a direct measurable torque designed to accurately preload a specific bearing. Increasing the contact angle of a TRB bearing to what we are using requires more torque to preload it correctly, thus the torque for our BMW bearings in this stem with this thread pitch should be at least equal to and greater than 7.4 ft lbs.
I dont know how much greater, but sitting the bearings side by side together they are fairly different and I can imagine the different torque required could be 'significant'.

Also, you now saying 7.4 ft lbs is the same as saying "snug" is a bit disingenuous and certainly goes against the last two quotes you raised to support your "snug" setting description- to me, both quotes quite clearly describe setting these bearings just to the desired point of no play- posibly a fraction further. Zero clearance. The first quote seems to make the claim that any actual preload will damage the bearing.

Snug is not preload- certainly in the descriptions used. Snug I would argue means zero play and in the real world would sit an insignificant fraction either side of zero into negative and positive clearance. If it is measurable negative clearance then it is preload. This zero clearance, it is important to repeat, will turn into positive clearance once radial and or axial loads are introduced, as will any given preload in response to a specific set of external loads.

I've tried to argue why actual real preload is desirable thing in setting up TRB's for our steering heads, and also why we should be torquing this figure up (with a KTM stem, blind nut and thread pitch) over 7.4 ft lbs.
Ive also tried to question how a reasonable preload could damage these bearings, and tried to show how an insufficient amount of preload can lead to damage and faster wear due to the loads they experience reducing the negative clearence and resulting in positive clearance.

Aside from the difference in our stem and blind nut and thread pitch , our bearings are still bmw bearings, so although they are problematic the traditional methods of setting preload by the resistance to turn the bars (fallaway or measured by a spring gauge) are still entirely valid.

As Supershaft says, Right is Right.
I've tried to set mine by this method and tested the results, and adjusted and retested.
Different to what Supershaft says, on our stems and clamps, once we have set them 'right' we now actually have a more concrete way to reproduce exactly what torque on the nut is required to correctly preload to the bearings and make it right. Set it 'right', test and adjust and decide when it is right- measure the preload.
Take everything apart, put it back together and simply reproduce that preload and it will be set right.
We no longer have most of the variables that make setting the normal BMW assembly up so.... variable.

At around 25 ft lb I suspect I've currently set mine a little on the high side, but at this torque I've experienced none of the negative handling effects of too much preload- and I am trying to run them at the highest preload setting I can before noticing any effect. 30 ft lb I could notice an effect. 20 ft lb just started to give me too rapid a bar fallaway (by my judgement).

This is not a perfect test, and I've only had it up to 80 or 90 Kmh like this and won't be testing it more in depth for a while, aside from not yet running it at high speed, variables might be that I am using old used but perfectly un-brinelled races with new bearings (I'll swap the races when I powdercoat the frame).

Nonetheless.
Preload is preload and is not snug. And we can measure it, and In this application I claim it should be over 7.4 ft lb, and that it should be as high as it can be before you notice any negative effects.


Thanks for dropping in Supershaft we haven't seen you in this thread much
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Old 05-22-2013, 10:29 AM   #866
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ontic View Post
Gage,
headshake at higher speed? Sounds kinda like too little trail and reduced 'steering stability'... with our axle offset combined with the triple offset we should by my calcs be running a fair bit less trail than stock geometry... however, dropping the clamps down the tubes reduces trail even further, so if that feels better then it probably wasn't the problem in the first place...
I'm no help
you might be right trying to fiddle with the rear shock.

Either way, I am looking forward to how it turns out.

OK, to clarify, with the forks all the way down in the triples I felt like I was "steering around" the front end and the balance was weird as well as the drop into corners.

On the freeway, when accelerating hard at higher speeds road bumps would unsettle the bike and give a slight headshake.

I added a bit of comp and rebound to the rear shock, as well as sliding the forks up in the triples.

The weird steering feeling is gone, and so far no issues on the freeway...
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Originally Posted by Stagehand
your bike is suitably dirty. Well done.
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Old 05-22-2013, 05:10 PM   #867
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Well, I didn't have any head shake problems except when I couldn't get that top bearing to seat in the race.

So if you want a steel stem, they're $180 I think I paid $125 for the KTM stem turned down from Guy.
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Old 05-23-2013, 12:46 PM   #868
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Changed a few of them.

I changed a few of those bearings......

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Old 05-24-2013, 04:21 PM   #869
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Request....

....for pics of how y'all are routing your clutch cable. As I had everything apart, I forgot my routing....and my new bars and hand guards have changed everything. thx
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Old 05-28-2013, 12:42 PM   #870
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....for pics of how y'all are routing your clutch cable. As I had everything apart, I forgot my routing....and my new bars and hand guards have changed everything. thx
ANybody???
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