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Old 02-07-2015, 03:08 PM   #1
jon_l OP
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Sat on 4 scoots today..

I have been posting in several threads here, SH150, Burgman 200, PCX, and Forza. Trying to figure out what I want.

Wifey just bought a 2011 Vespa 300 GTV, to replace her Super Sherpa.

I will keep my motorcycle, a CBF1000.

I sat on 4 bikes today:

Forza '14
PCX '13
PCX '15
Burgman 200, '14

The Forza seemed to have the least amount of cockpit room. And as Sendler noted in the Forza thread, the foot rest positions seem a bit off - way too vertical for comfort. The under-seat access is awkward. The dealer unbolted the back rest and we looked at how the seat could be re-worked to move me up and back. He offered to help with that, which was good. The glove boxes seemed unfinished & cheap. The red paint was great, center stand was easy-up. Compared to the 150 and 200, it seemed really large & heavy (duh! it is a bigger bike!). 24,000 km valve clearance check intervals is great, so I could live with shims. Nice machine I am sure, but it's not the one for me.

I liked the '15 PCX a lot. The deep red paint was very nice. Cockpit was more spacious than the Forza, hip to knee angle better too. The '13 would be fine too without the hump, which can be cured. The foot-boards are small for my size 12 boots, the forward positions not really usable. It feels like a 50cc bike beside the Forza. I wish I thought the 150 was enough for me.

I liked the Burgman. Man does that bike ever have a big ass! I could live with it though, as the storage is amazing. And illuminated! Surprisingly, it seemed better finished to me than the Forza. I also liked the foot-boards better than the Forza - the forward, upright position was a much better angle. Much taller windshield, don't know how that would be without riding it. It feels much smaller than the Forza, and I believe 200cc would be enough for me. I like this bike. Bonus, the dealer's inventory showed 2 in stock, both matte black (ugh!), but after I left, they pulled the 2nd, still-crated bike out of storage, peeked into the box and discovered it is a white one, so a data entry error. Price is fair (under MSRP, no freight or other fees).

There are 2 other 150cc bikes I have considered - a SH150, used, very clean, very low mileage, decent price, and a new, old stock '09 LX150. I just can't get past the lack of storage on the SH (it has a Honda top box, but the weight is up awfully high). The Vespa is gorgeous, but less power than the other 150s, and I already think 150 isn't enough. And the Vespa has those tiny diameter wheels.

If I had to decide today, the Burgman wins.
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Old 02-07-2015, 03:28 PM   #2
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If you're liking the concept of the Honda sh150, Have you looked at the Aprilia Scarabeo 200 or Sym HD200? Pretty much the exact same design as the sh150.

I had a very hard time debating between the Sh150i and the Scarabeo 200. Ended up finding a great deal on a Sh150i and that took the cake.
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Old 02-07-2015, 03:46 PM   #3
jon_l OP
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Originally Posted by Eliter85 View Post
If you're liking the concept of the Honda sh150, Have you looked at the Aprilia Scarabeo 200 or Sym HD200? Pretty much the exact same design as the sh150.
.
I looked at the HD200 today - good looking bike. Everything I read indicates these are good machines. I just feel more comfortable with the Japanese-branded scooters.

As time goes on, I expect my comfort level with Taiwanese bikes may increase.
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Old 02-07-2015, 05:03 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jon_l View Post
I looked at the HD200 today - very looking bike. Everything I read indicates these are good machines. I just feel more comfortable with the Japanese-branded scooters.

As time goes on, I expect my comfort level with Taiwanese bikes may increase.
The HD 200 is a better scooter than PCX, SH and Baby Burger. The motor is more capable even sans FI. It will run faster longer and has been proven near bullit proof. Also can be had for about 3k OTD.

The Kymco GT300i or DT 300 will out preform the Forza almost across the board for less money.

I also think the Aprilla is better than the Hondas and the Burgman.
Just my .02 Yes I have saddle time on all of these scooters.

Of course it's all about the "fit". If It don't fit.....

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Old 02-07-2015, 05:22 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AMAC1680 View Post
The HD 200 is a better scooter than PCX, SH and Baby Burger. The motor is more capable even sans FI. It will run faster longer and has been proven near bullit proof. Also can be had for about 3k OTD.

The Kymco GT300i or DT 300 will out preform the Forza almost across the board for less money.

I also think the Aprilla is better than the Hondas and the Burgman.
Just my .02 Yes I have saddle time on all of these scooters.

Of course it's all about the "fit". If It don't fit.....

Be Big,
AMAC
I believe you. I've not heard any serious criticisms of The HD200. Canada is bigger than the US, and we have 18 dealers Atlantic to Pacific.

I'm just more comfortable, for now, with brands I know.

MSRP of the HD200 is $4k. The Burg is $4,600. I like ABS and disc rear brake.
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Old 02-07-2015, 07:57 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by jon_l View Post
I believe you. I've not heard any serious criticisms of The HD200. Canada is bigger than the US, and we have 18 dealers Atlantic to Pacific.

I'm just more comfortable, for now, with brands I know.

MSRP of the HD200 is $4k. The Burg is $4,600. I like ABS and disc rear brake.
Yeah if you don't have a dealer close its a deal killer, particularly with SYM. On the off chance you need parts you need a dealer no way around it.

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Old 02-07-2015, 08:29 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jon_l View Post
I believe you. I've not heard any serious criticisms of The HD200. Canada is bigger than the US, and we have 18 dealers Atlantic to Pacific.

I'm just more comfortable, for now, with brands I know.

MSRP of the HD200 is $4k. The Burg is $4,600. I like ABS and disc rear brake.
Fyi only, the HD200 evo has front/rear discs.

Buy what you like. Doesn't sound like anything is really exciting you so far. You bought a vespa for your wife, why not look at a Piaggio BV (used 250/300 or new 350)? Flat floor, upright seating, great storage, and serviced by the same place that will maintain your wife's Vespa.
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Old 02-08-2015, 04:15 AM   #8
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Just curious - isn't Collingwood where the Blue Mountian Ski resort is? Been years since I have been there. Just thinking that dealer support may be the "decider".
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Old 02-08-2015, 06:36 AM   #9
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Hi Dan. Yes, Collingwood is adjacent to Blue Mountain.

In town dealer support is very limited. We have Parkway Yamaha, which I believe sells more snowmobiles than bikes, and no scooters (well, right now they have one stupidly overpriced Yam 125 BWS).

We have the Honda car dealer, which I was told will order bike/scooter parts.

We have a Triumph dealer 10 minutes out of town.

Within a 2 hour one-way driving range, we have 3 urban centers, between them all brands are represented. Canada is huge geographically (about same as US), but sparsely populated (1/10 US), but cold in comparison to much of the US, and scooter sales here are tiny. There are only a couple of real scooter dealers around. Most motorcycle shops stock a scoot or 3, but don't know or care much about them.

I found a Kijiji ad for a small town SYM dealer 75 minutes away advertising a new HD200 EVO for a decent price. Will give this one some thought. Should have paid more attention to the one I saw yesterday.

While Wifey's Vespa is a beauty, I am a form over function guy, and I can get a scooter with similar performance, better storage, and ABS brand new for the same money as her used Vespa.
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Old 02-08-2015, 07:40 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jon_l View Post
I have been posting in several threads here, SH150, Burgman 200, PCX, and Forza. Trying to figure out what I want.

Wifey just bought a 2011 Vespa 300 GTV, to replace her Super Sherpa.

I will keep my motorcycle, a CBF1000.

I sat on 4 bikes today:

Forza '14
PCX '13
PCX '15
Burgman 200, '14

The Forza seemed to have the least amount of cockpit room. And as Sendler noted in the Forza thread, the foot rest positions seem a bit off - way too vertical for comfort. The under-seat access is awkward. The dealer unbolted the back rest and we looked at how the seat could be re-worked to move me up and back. He offered to help with that, which was good. The glove boxes seemed unfinished & cheap. The red paint was great, center stand was easy-up. Compared to the 150 and 200, it seemed really large & heavy (duh! it is a bigger bike!). 24,000 km valve clearance check intervals is great, so I could live with shims. Nice machine I am sure, but it's not the one for me.

I liked the '15 PCX a lot. The deep red paint was very nice. Cockpit was more spacious than the Forza, hip to knee angle better too. The '13 would be fine too without the hump, which can be cured. The foot-boards are small for my size 12 boots, the forward positions not really usable. It feels like a 50cc bike beside the Forza. I wish I thought the 150 was enough for me.

I liked the Burgman. Man does that bike ever have a big ass! I could live with it though, as the storage is amazing. And illuminated! Surprisingly, it seemed better finished to me than the Forza. I also liked the foot-boards better than the Forza - the forward, upright position was a much better angle. Much taller windshield, don't know how that would be without riding it. It feels much smaller than the Forza, and I believe 200cc would be enough for me. I like this bike. Bonus, the dealer's inventory showed 2 in stock, both matte black (ugh!), but after I left, they pulled the 2nd, still-crated bike out of storage, peeked into the box and discovered it is a white one, so a data entry error. Price is fair (under MSRP, no freight or other fees).

There are 2 other 150cc bikes I have considered - a SH150, used, very clean, very low mileage, decent price, and a new, old stock '09 LX150. I just can't get past the lack of storage on the SH (it has a Honda top box, but the weight is up awfully high). The Vespa is gorgeous, but less power than the other 150s, and I already think 150 isn't enough. And the Vespa has those tiny diameter wheels.

If I had to decide today, the Burgman wins.
I agree with every description you made here as I recently went through nearly the same exercise. I went with the PCX because I couldn't get past the looks of the baby Burgman. I really wanted to like the Forza but at 6'2" my knees hit the dash and I also found the under seat access awkward. I really didn't like the stadium seat design either.

The 200 Burgman is the perfect size with ABS and mega storage but I don't like the looks at all.
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Old 02-08-2015, 01:57 PM   #11
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Welcome to the mental game of deciding where your priorities lie. Everything is a compromise.

Price. Top speed. Value for dollar. To some folks, aesthetics. After sale support. Ease of / value at resale. How the bike fits you. MPG. Etc...

PCX and SH150 are in a different league of scoot than a Forza or Kymco GT300 for example. Burg 200 tries to bridge that gap. Depends on what you want the scooter to do the majority of the time you're in the saddle.

For instance, for errands within 15 miles of my house in the suburbs, the PCX or a Yamaha S-Max are more flickable and fun to ride, and I'd choose one of those over any of the 300cc scooters for this kind of mission. Considering that you can get a new PCX for $3k range delivered if you shop around at the right time of year, it probably presents the best value for the dollar all things considered for suburban bombing. SMax a viable alternative.



Burg 200 gives you a bit more capability, i.e. highway, but is way more money than a PCX or SH. My dad got his new leftover Forza for roughly $4k out the door, and this makes the price of the Burgie look like less of a value to me. Burgie can do highway, but can it do highway well or just barely do highway? Prevailing speeds on the interstates are pretty high out here in the flatland, so for extended 4-lane use I'd want something with more oomph, and for Burg money you can easily get more oomph. ABS is nice.

Forza or Kym 300i are the beginning of the really highway capable scooters. For that highway capability, you have some tradeoffs vs a PCX or SMax or Burg 200. You gain top speed. You also gain weight and size and cost. You move up to a Majesty or Burg 400 or 600 and you get more speed more easily, more passenger capacity, etc, and again gain more weight and your wallet is a lot lighter. A 300cc scooter that's 75 or 100% more money than a 150 should indeed go faster.

It really boils down to what you want the scooter to accomplish, your riding environment, and what fits when you are sitting on it. You'll want a different scooter to ride around downtown NYC or LA than you will in Laramie.

Oh, and how much of your hard earned cash you want to invest in a scooter. A lesser factor, but still a factor, is the resale and ability to dump it if and when you change your mind later or want to upgrade. You stick a PCX or Ruckus or SH150 or Zuma on Craigslist around my area, it's gone in about a day or two for decent money. A Sym is a lot harder to sell locally and when they do sell, they don't bring much. Kymcos don't seem to hold much value around these parts either. Neither the Sym nor the Kym is a bad machine at all, it's just my local market. Sadly, we have one weak Sym dealer and one decent but fairly small Kymco dealer in my 2 mil pop metro area. I shopped Kymco very seriously when I got my PCX last year, but they had nothing available to me in this area that matched up well to the PCX for the price. They had a couple of Like 200s but they were pretty proud of them $$ and I didn't like the poor underseat storage or the ergos. I did like the looks of the Like maybe a smidge better than my PCX, but I don't buy bikes for what I look like riding them-- or at least appearance is a distant consideration for me unless something is just horrific.

Then you have used machines. I've seen some super clean, well maintained used Majesties for sale with low miles around my area for $2000-2500. That's a lot of scooter for the money and will take you anywhere you want to go. For half the price of a Forza or Burg 200 or Kymco 300. Of course, you'll have to deal with changing 47 pricey air filters on the Maj at 100 mile intervals, and a ten thousand dollar valve adjustment in the distant future. (kidding)

If I were you, I might bide my time a bit and wait until the spring used m/c and scooter uptick happens on Craigslist. Something like a used Majesty or if you got lucky and one came up, Kym 300i, would be a good value. Maybe even a used Reflex. For some reason, the Reflexes seem to sell poorly around here and have fairly low resale. Might be a bargain if the price and condition were right if they fit you.
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Old 02-08-2015, 03:42 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by jon_l View Post
I looked at the HD200 today - good looking bike. Everything I read indicates these are good machines. I just feel more comfortable with the Japanese-branded scooters.

As time goes on, I expect my comfort level with Taiwanese bikes may increase.
They Sym HD had a very, very good rep and has placed highly in ever one of the Scooter Cannonballs it has run in. Quality on the Taiwanese bikes is every bit as good as the Japanese ones. I wouldn't hesitate to buy the HD and would in fact buy it over either the PCX or the Forza. Primarily because the seating position and style suit me better, secondarily for the price.

If you can find a used Sports City 250, Scarabeo 200 or BV 250 you might find they suit being lighter than the Forza and having the more upright ergonomics.
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Old 02-08-2015, 04:05 PM   #13
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Oh My!

The dealer with the Honda Forza just emailed me, and offered me the Forza for $2k under MSRP, no fees, plus tax. A Forza for the same price as he is offering the '15 PCX150 for!

This was in response to me advising him earlier today by email that I appreciate his time, but won't be buying the Forza.

After spending an hour in the showroom, I didn't think the Forza is the scooter for me, just too many ergonomic issues. The dealer offered to have the seat professionally re-done for very reasonable money, and said if it isn't right the first time, they'll tweak it again, until it feels right.

With a well-done saddle-job, I know I'd be a lot happier than I would on a stock one. But.....

if I decided no yesterday, should another $500 off change my mind?

My first reaction in no, but it's tempting. Gotta decide in the AM, because (apparently) there is another buyer on deck.
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Old 02-08-2015, 04:41 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by jon_l View Post
The dealer with the Honda Forza just emailed me, and offered me the Forza for $2k under MSRP, no fees, plus tax. A Forza for the same price as he is offering the '15 PCX150 for!

This was in response to me advising him earlier today by email that I appreciate his time, but won't be buying the Forza.

After spending an hour in the showroom, I didn't think the Forza is the scooter for me, just too many ergonomic issues. The dealer offered to have the seat professionally re-done for very reasonable money, and said if it isn't right the first time, they'll tweak it again, until it feels right.

With a well-done saddle-job, I know I'd be a lot happier than I would on a stock one. But.....

if I decided no yesterday, should another $500 off change my mind?

My first reaction in no, but it's tempting. Gotta decide in the AM, because (apparently) there is another buyer on deck.
It's a good number and a good deal with the seat mods assuming the dealer follows thru.

Should another $500 off change your mind ? Only if you like the Forza and are pretty sure it will fit after the seat mod. It's got to fit,,got to......

Scooters that don't fit sit.

Good luck with your impending decision.

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Old 02-08-2015, 05:40 PM   #15
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My first reaction in no, but it's tempting. Gotta decide in the AM, because (apparently) there is another buyer on deck.
Something tells me that if a salesman had another buying customer on the hook, it would already be sold. 😉
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