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Old 09-12-2012, 12:03 PM   #2371
Foot dragger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LukasM View Post
Your theory does not quite work, if the bolt was left so loose as to allow lateral play on the shaft it would be pissing out so much oil that you'd need to fill it up 100 times in the 11k.

DRZ are slow turds compared to the KTMs, and maybe their shaft is more appropriately sized for their power.

Fact is that the EXCs and SXCs wear out the countershafts and often break the solid hubs (I have seen both OEM and billet Talon ones broken) if no cush drive is used in high traction applications where a lot of shock is transmitted. Obviously this is gradual so you need to rack up enough miles for this to be noticeable - which excludes most riders on these higher performance/maintenance machines.
If theres no slop between a countershaft sprocket and the shaft,how does it bang back and forth and kill the shaft? Leaving it loose just once is enough to start the destruction.
Hubs generally break from jumping way up in the air and coming down real hard,a 530 or 450 KTM is not any more violently fast then any other big bore 4 stroke. I know you are 100% sure you are right like everyone else on the internet and that's fine.
.
The thing is 98% of 530/525/450/500 owners will have no cush hub put on their rear wheel and wont have their countershaft ground to dust,there has to be slop start somewhere to have a sprocket do that to a shaft.
1 picture of a destroyed shaft is just that,1 picture. A shop mechanic would not warranty that damage,he would say the bolt had been run loose.

Its funny really,the countershaft is part of the driveline inside the engine,therefore it is damped by the clutch hub,a knobby tire slips more then a street tire so it also damps power impulses,dirt allows slip so it damps the power impulses to the driveline.

Ive read many a thread about these bikes,where are all the complaints about countershaft and hub breakage? Seems like someone would at least mention it .
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Old 09-12-2012, 12:10 PM   #2372
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Originally Posted by jesusgatos View Post
I've been riding my 450XCW almost exclusively on-road, with a set of 19/17 Woodys wheels (Rad front & OEM rear) and goddamn does that cush hub make a difference. Agree with you about performance off-road, but even when I've got dirt wheels on my bike, I do a lot of dualsport riding. You know, to and from trails, etc. Trailers are for boats! Anyway, have just found that the cush-hub really smoothes-out the power-transfer and helps a lot with settling the bike down, especially downshifting into corners. Picked up another OEM cush-hub to lace-up for my dirt wheelset. Heard that some of the aftermarket cush-hubs were having problems with the rubber bumpers not holding up very well.
Thats interesting, I wonder if the flattrack guys have caught on to that yet,or pro MX guys?If its a noticeable advantage I bet they would be all over it.
Id like to bolt a cush hub wheel on the back of my 530 to check it out.
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Old 09-12-2012, 12:11 PM   #2373
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Foot dragger View Post
If theres no slop between a countershaft sprocket and the shaft,how does it bang back and forth and kill the shaft? Leaving it loose just once is enough to start the destruction.
Hubs generally break from jumping way up in the air and coming down real hard,a 530 or 450 KTM is not any more violently fast then any other big bore 4 stroke. I know you are 100% sure you are right like everyone else on the internet and that's fine.
.
The thing is 98% of 530/525/450/500 owners will have no cush hub put on their rear wheel and wont have their countershaft ground to dust,there has to be slop start somewhere to have a sprocket do that to a shaft.
1 picture of a destroyed shaft is just that,1 picture. A shop mechanic would not warranty that damage,he would say the bolt had been run loose.

Its funny really,the countershaft is part of the driveline inside the engine,therefore it is damped by the clutch hub,a knobby tire slips more then a street tire so it also damps power impulses,dirt allows slip so it damps the power impulses to the driveline.

Ive read many a thread about these bikes,where are all the complaints about countershaft and hub breakage? Seems like someone would at least mention it .

You might not have read about it, but show me a 450/520/525/530 with around 10-15k and a good amount of that on the street with solid hub, and I'll show you the wear.

http://ktmtalk.com/index.php?showtopic=378605&st=0
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Old 09-12-2012, 12:16 PM   #2374
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Originally Posted by LukasM View Post
You might not have read about it, but show me a 450/520/525/530 with around 10-15k and a good amount of that on the street with solid hub, and I'll show you the wear.

http://ktmtalk.com/index.php?showtopic=378605&st=0
People really buy these things to ride on the street? That boggles my mind still.
I have a 1200 Triumph for that,seems more comfy and fast somehow.
KTM used to have a disclaimer about these bikes,said something about not riding them on the street.

That actually happens?Buying a 12.5" travel bike as a streetbike?One can only wonder why. I feel like Im wasting the bikes talents going street riding with it.
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Old 09-12-2012, 12:23 PM   #2375
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Originally Posted by Foot dragger View Post
People really buy these things to ride on the street? That boggles my mind still.
I have a 1200 Triumph for that,seems more comfy and fast somehow.
KTM used to have a disclaimer about these bikes,said something about not riding them on the street.

That actually happens?Buying a 12.5" travel bike as a streetbike?One can only wonder why. I feel like Im wasting the bikes talents going street riding with it.
Not sure what you don't get, the point of a dual sport bike is that it also works decently on the pavement.

Guess you have never ridden a light weight high performance supermoto either? I would dance circles around your 1200 on the "streets" I ride on, and that's with my luggage on...

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Old 09-12-2012, 12:54 PM   #2376
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Originally Posted by LukasM View Post
Not sure what you don't get, the point of a dual sport bike is that it also works decently on the pavement.

Guess you have never ridden a light weight high performance supermoto either? I would dance circles around your 1200 on the "streets" I ride on, and that's with my luggage on...

Well,I did race flattrack at the expert level for more then a few years so Ive blasted around on a few nice light singles. I get that they should work ok on the street,but buying them primarily as a streetbike is what I dont get,by 15K one of these engines is ready for some serious work,thats not even a whole year on my streetbike sometimes.

Maybe on some of the streets I ride on, a single of any sort might get a little thin around the 140mph mark?
There's all kinds of street riding.

I know in much of Europe getting to any sort of dirt riding can be a chore,I tend to think anybody can ride 20 miles and be on dirt the rest of the day like it is here in nor cal.

I LIKE that Husaberg a lot and I also know you've done some amazing builds on bikes of all sorts,I like your creativity.
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Old 09-12-2012, 01:08 PM   #2377
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Foot dragger View Post
If theres no slop between a countershaft sprocket and the shaft,how does it bang back and forth and kill the shaft?

Ive read many a thread about these bikes,where are all the complaints about countershaft and hub breakage? Seems like someone would at least mention it .
There is slop. It starts out as an imperceptible amount, and increases over time with wear. The sprocket rocks back and forth on the countershaft splines on acceleration/deceleration, and it might not be much of a problem riding off-road, but it does fuck things up if you ride on the street a lot, and there are a lot of documented cases of that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Foot dragger View Post
Thats interesting, I wonder if the flattrack guys have caught on to that yet,or pro MX guys?If its a noticeable advantage I bet they would be all over it.
Id like to bolt a cush hub wheel on the back of my 530 to check it out.
I dunno, I'm a total hack. But I wasn't talking about a competitive advantage as much as a noticeable improvement in performance (traction) and wear (countershaft splines).

Robo's got a set of SM wheels with a cush-hub and I'm sure he wouldn't mind if you wanted to borrow them. Seriously. Hit him up and them them for a spin. Would love to know what you think after riding them. But you'd really need to ride a solid-hub SM wheel back-to-back and we don't have any more of those. When I switched over, it was like night and day. Got rid of all my solid-hub wheels.

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Old 09-12-2012, 01:22 PM   #2378
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jesusgatos View Post
There is slop. It starts out as an imperceptible amount, and increases over time with wear. The sprocket rocks back and forth on the countershaft splines on acceleration/deceleration, and it might not be much of a problem riding off-road, but it does fuck things up if you ride on the street a lot, and there are a lot of documented cases of that.


I dunno, I'm a total hack. But I wasn't talking about a competitive advantage as much as a noticeable improvement in performance (traction) and wear (countershaft splines).

Robo's got a set of SM wheels with a cush-hub and I'm sure he wouldn't mind if you wanted to borrow them. Seriously. Hit him up and them them for a spin. Would love to know what you think after riding them. But you'd really need to ride a solid-hub SM wheel back-to-back and we don't have any more of those. When I switched over, it was like night and day. Got rid of all my solid-hub wheels.

Thats weird it would have slop with a fresh bolt/bell washer,if you say they do then they must. Ive mainly had 2 stroke KTM's and have never had much of any problems with them,started buying them in the late 70's and have had a bunch since then. Had 1 4stroke SC620Lc4 with a plate/super moto wheels on it,very violent bike did wheelies at speed, more then I really needed.
Shook hard,never broke anything.

Ive ridden my 530 on the street a little and it worked great,I just dont plan on doing it much. Long desert trips are more it's purpose for me,or even local trailriding taking off from the house. Once it cools down a little,maybe some rain, I'll have to drag your brother out there,plenty of good singletrack for a 530.
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Old 09-12-2012, 01:37 PM   #2379
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Foot dragger View Post
Thats interesting, I wonder if the flattrack guys have caught on to that yet,or pro MX guys?If its a noticeable advantage I bet they would be all over it.
Id like to bolt a cush hub wheel on the back of my 530 to check it out.
this isnt a performance advantage issue it is a wear issue thing. I doubt racers would care as they are constantly tearing into engines. they'll see the wear and replace the shaft. Plus they probably dont want the extra weight we all know how nutty they get over that.

I dont agreee with your accessment of the clutch cuish taking the brunt. that is on the opposite end of a shaft and that means he shaft is going tohave ot twist for it to take effect. that is what a cush hub minizes.

Riding with one one for a short whiel you probabaly wont notice the difference. My guess is it would take riding with one for a couple months and then going back to a solid hub. THAT is when I noticed the difference.
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Old 09-12-2012, 01:59 PM   #2380
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Foot dragger View Post
Thats weird it would have slop with a fresh bolt/bell washer,if you say they do then they must.
Tightening that bolt doesn't really do much to keep the sprocket from rotating around the countershaft. That all comes down to the splines on the sprocket and countershaft, and the need to be able to remove/install sprockets quickly/easily was obviously more important than eliminating slop. That little bit of clearance allows just enough movement that, over time, and certain types of use, will lead to the type of wear that you can see in some of those pictures that have been posted of the worn-out countershafts.
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Old 09-12-2012, 05:27 PM   #2381
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loctite on countershaft sprocket ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jesusgatos View Post
Tightening that bolt doesn't really do much to keep the sprocket from rotating around the countershaft. That all comes down to the splines on the sprocket and countershaft, and the need to be able to remove/install sprockets quickly/easily was obviously more important than eliminating slop. That little bit of clearance allows just enough movement that, over time, and certain types of use, will lead to the type of wear that you can see in some of those pictures that have been posted of the worn-out countershafts.
I don't know if its a good idea for KTM's but loctite on the countershaft sprocket splines is a common fix for DRZ400's.
The rocking back and forth of the sprocket on the splines transfers wear to the 2nd gear bushing on the DRZ.
Applying loctite to the splines when fitting a new sprocket eliminates any movement.
I've used this method on two DRZ's from new. One has now done 70,000km and the other 56,000km.
The CS splines are like new and the loctite holds solid for the life of the sprocket.
On the DRZ I can lever off the loctited sprocket with two tyre levers so could change it out on the side of the road. However, for dualsport riding, I've never needed to do that.

Anyway, just putting the idea out there. As I stated, dont know if its a good idea for KTM's.

Heres the link to the DRZ countershaft loctite fix.
http://www.thumpertalk.com/topic/540...t-loctite-fix/
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Old 09-12-2012, 07:01 PM   #2382
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Foot dragger View Post
.................................................. ......
.
The thing is 98% of 530/525/450/500 owners will have no cush hub put on their rear wheel and wont have their countershaft ground to dust,there has to be slop start somewhere to have a sprocket do that to a shaft.
1 picture of a destroyed shaft is just that,1 picture. ........................................

Ive read many a thread about these bikes,where are all the complaints about countershaft and hub breakage? Seems like someone would at least mention it .

Another picture of a failed KTM drive spline.




This is off my 525 thats was used primarily for DS use and some motard. This damage was at 470 hours and OEM sprockets were the only sprockets used on this spline. OEM sprockets were suggested to reduce spline wear. As Lukas stated this wear only surfaces after long and hard usage, the reality is most posters don't keep their bikes long enough to realize the wear and is why it is not a common complaint on the board..................but it does happen eventually.
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Old 09-12-2012, 09:31 PM   #2383
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Here's what's going on with the counter shaft splines:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fretting

This is a very interesting phonom due to very high cycling of stresses. Putting some type of cushioning agent between these two surfaces would help a lot. Look closely at that photo again, the spacer surface behind the splines have a light red color to it, that is the fine steel particles that were literally hammered from the splines. You may think that since there is something that looks like rust it needs an anti-corrosive, but it has nothing to do with water. There are two simple ways to prevent it.

1. Cushioning (between the splines). Using Loctite on the splines is a weird solution, but if you pour on enough to prevent any movement, I guess it could work. You'd also have to put enough on to prevent any air from reaching it for it to set up. Loctite costs more than gold these days though. One of the best solutions is high pressure grease containing a soft metal like moly or copper. I like moly based anti-seize. Moly is also a very interesting metal, it is made of many thin layers that prevent the splines from touching. It reminds of a stack of paper, have you ever stepped on a magazine in the middle of the night? It is very slick as the layers slip over each other.

2. Keep the peak stresses down. Big single cylinder four stroke engines have a cycle like: Jerk, rest, rest, rest. Multi-cylinders have a cycle like: 1/2 jerk, rest, 1/2 jerk, rest. The 500 EXC puts out maybe 35 ft/lbs of torque, but that's average. The peak torque when that cylinder fires may be four times that much. Running this engine at full throttle and low RPM's with a sticky rear tire on pavement really creates a lot of peak stress. The solution is either a cush drive on the rear hub, or by only riding on a soft surface that allows the rear wheel to spin.

This is far from a new problem. BMW Airhead clutch splines is one example that has been raging since 1970's. BMW's BE's (baby engineers) came out with a string of special goo's that were to solve the problem. All the spittle that was primarily an anti corrosive did not work. Any anti-seize did work.

My old XR650L almost wore out the splines in 3000 miles. It had no oil or grease on the splines and a red powder sun burst coming from the center of the sprocket. I put moly grease on these and it lasted 30,000 miles with no further problem.
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Old 09-12-2012, 09:33 PM   #2384
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Damn,that's a lot of wear.
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Old 09-12-2012, 10:11 PM   #2385
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zuber View Post
Mechanical Engineer Geek Warning Ahead.

Here's what's going on with the counter shaft splines:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fretting

This is a very interesting phonom due to very high cycling of stresses. Putting some type of cushioning agent between these two surfaces would help a lot. Look closely at that photo again, the spacer surface behind the splines have a light red color to it, that is the fine steel particles that were literally hammered from the splines. You may think that since there is something that looks like rust it needs an anti-corrosive, but it has nothing to do with water. There are two simple ways to prevent it.

1. Cushioning (between the splines). Using Loctite on the splines is a weird solution, but if you pour on enough to prevent any movement, I guess it could work. You'd also have to put enough on to prevent any air from reaching it for it to set up. Loctite costs more than gold these days though. One of the best solutions is high pressure grease containing a soft metal like moly or copper. I like moly based anti-seize. Moly is also a very interesting metal, it is made of many thin layers that prevent the splines from touching. It reminds of a stack of paper, have you ever stepped on a magazine in the middle of the night? It is very slick as the layers slip over each other.

2. Keep the peak stresses down. Big single cylinder four stroke engines have a cycle like: Jerk, rest, rest, rest. Multi-cylinders have a cycle like: 1/2 jerk, rest, 1/2 jerk, rest. The 500 EXC puts out maybe 35 ft/lbs of torque, but that's average. The peak torque when that cylinder fires may be four times that much. Running this engine at full throttle and low RPM's with a sticky rear tire on pavement really creates a lot of peak stress. The solution is either a cush drive on the rear hub, or by only riding on a soft surface that allows the rear wheel to spin.

This is far from a new problem. BMW Airhead clutch splines is one example that has been raging since 1970's. BMW's BE's (baby engineers) came out with a string of special goo's that were to solve the problem. All the spittle that was primarily an anti corrosive did not work. Any anti-seize did work.

My old XR650L almost wore out the splines in 3000 miles. It had no oil or grease on the splines and a red powder sun burst coming from the center of the sprocket. I put moly grease on these and it lasted 30,000 miles with no further problem.
Ha! I started thinking "airhead splines" as soon as you started talking about metal dust and spline wear. I rebuilt a 1976 airhead once and got pretty well aquainted with their oddities.
By chance I have some of BMW's magic spline lube around here still,the stuff I have is copper based.
I might give it a shot on the countershaft splines on the 530.
As the bike is a dirtbike mainly for me,hopefully I wont hammer driveline parts so hard.

Maybe I should put some BMW grease on the splines on my DR as well.
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