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Old 01-19-2014, 03:32 PM   #1816
640 Armageddon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tehdutchie View Post
The units come with a 5 year warranty but expect to break about 40% of the units during a weeks riding
Hey techdutchie

What faults do they develop?
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Old 01-19-2014, 03:33 PM   #1817
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Originally Posted by emmodg View Post
Yeah.... It's coming.
If it's coming with a 40% failure rate I'd say it's not coming at all
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Old 01-20-2014, 02:23 AM   #1818
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Originally Posted by 640 Armageddon View Post
If it's coming with a 40% failure rate I'd say it's not coming at all
Exactly... and at least with Dakar and FIM events, they have the luxury of Iritrack and a recovery helicopter... in amateur level events, getting seriously lost is potentially far more dangerous.

I will try and explain for those unfamiliar with RALLY navigation - the whole point to a Rally Raid event is the navigation, and your ability to process the instructions and information which in turn allows you ride the course the organisers had intended you follow.

Having three separate devices - the road book, the ICO (tripmeter) and a CAP (compass) heading - typically via GPS, either your own in amateur events, or the Orga UNIK unit in FIM/Dakar) means that should any one* of those items fail at any point, you still have a good change of navigating your way off the stage.

This is primarily for your own safety of course, but as Deadly99 says - you have paid a lot to enter this event, you don't want it all over due to a [single unit] failing with your navigation gear?

The idea is that you relay on each item pretty much equally, and depending on terrain any one of those going wrong can have a lesser of greater effect.

For example in open terrain (off piste) not having a cap heading is potentially a big problem, but not incermountable if you still have the roadbook and the ICO working to show how far you've gone, and hopefully winding the roadbook forward will reveal some landmark for you to aim for.

Similarly, if the ICO goes down (which is why a lot of riders double up on these), again you are in trouble, but at least you can wind the roadbook forward and see a landmark (whether than is a tree, tyre, track junction) and have a pretty good idea what to look for...

I think you see where I am going with this?

Yes, if the mechanical roadbook jams or breaks (in an accident) - you can still physically take the roll of paper and wind it forward to see the instructions... If it was electronic, you would be screwed.

*Even if two items, or even all three all fail - with a physical, printed roadbook, you can still see the instructions - all the way to the finish, or at least a CP/safe point.



I don't doubt an electronic 'all in one' device such as the OffroadNAVI would be an awesome device (it's the first time I've seen one of those particular units) for trail riding and general travel - and I've always thought an iPad Mini in a tough box would be an excellent 'dashboard' on a trail bike - running for example Garmin GPS software in conjunction with Google Maps/Earth and whatever else you fancied, in a decent sized screen - but I cannot see competition organisers, nor the competitors themselves wanting to risk a DNF (or even their lives) on a single piece of equipment, and especially an electronic one?

Yes these things can be made tough - but even the ERTF GPS UNIK and Iritrack devices used on FIM/Dakar events fail, and those are military specification and unavailable to buy - and whatismore they are not fundamental to your navigation.

Jx
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Old 01-20-2014, 02:51 AM   #1819
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We run the Tripy's with the roadbook and GPS units with just waypoints as back up/parallel.

The Tripy II's are waterproof, but only so much ofcourse. Running them in all weather does take the life out of them. Screens then die and that's the end. If the units lock, you can remove the 'internal' card and the unit reboots. No worries there, but water/cold/sun combination kills all these things. ICO's/RNS units and the likes all die too. Funnily enough the garmins that we run to match the roadbooks with waypoints seem to last best.

Return the faulty Tripy's to the factory and you'lll get new units/refurbished units.

Out of the 40% that die during an event I think we can split them evenly between crashes and 'electrical' faults.
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Old 01-20-2014, 02:55 AM   #1820
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deadly99 View Post
40% failure rate?

Costs a lot to get into, get to, etc a rally. I'd want to be damn sure my rally wasn't going to end due to a failure in the nav gear...
Our organisor brings spare units and offers them as rentals too. So we are covered, but if you break a unit during the day, you'll need to find a buddy fast or try not to get lost.

Cost wise, it all adds up.

MD Roadbook, 400 euros
ICO/TNS, 250-300 euros x 2
Remote control, 200 euros
Roadbook brackets, 200 euros
GPS, 300 euros
CAP repeaters etc.

Now mount all of this to the most vulnerable place and hope for the best!


Tripy, 600 euros.

Mmmm... It does close the GAP pricewise... Why not bring 2 Tripy's vs 1 Roadbook set up? Put one in the back pack and off you go!!
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Old 01-20-2014, 03:00 AM   #1821
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tehdutchie View Post
We already run digital roadbooks at the Leppink events. Gerjan made 2 classes, digital (as in tripy) and analogue (paper).
Tripy II units work much better then the old ones that couldn't hold a signal. The units come with a 5 year warranty but expect to break about 40% of the units during a weeks riding.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 640 Armageddon View Post
Hey techdutchie
What faults do they develop?
if its the gerjan i think it is, 40% digital device dnf might be about right
cause he certainly has the ability to "test" the gear.






heavy stack at speed in bulldust, he was sore but rode on
gerjan
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Old 01-20-2014, 03:04 AM   #1822
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Trouble I have the tripy is the lack of maps as I would like to use it to replace my Garmins too.

Next to this it turns the whole fun of riding roadbook into a car trip. The way they are currently set up is that the Trip counts down until the next turn, it shows the upcoming turn off situation etc etc. To accurate for my liking

You'll have the change the software/options, so the tripy wont show you the way back when you miss a turn off (it show a big arrows to the last turn off or the nearest situation).

Make life real easy. Way to easy...

Thats why the digital class vs paper class.
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Old 01-20-2014, 03:06 AM   #1823
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fetid_swamp View Post
if its the gerjan i think it is, 40% digital device dnf might be about right
cause he certainly has the ability to "test" the gear.






heavy stack at speed in bulldust, he was sore but rode on
gerjan
There is only 1 Gerjan


These roadbook write off's make you consider a Tripy set up though...

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Old 01-20-2014, 05:23 AM   #1824
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I am with Jenny in this one. It reminds me of the analogy of the pen and pencil. There is an anecdote, a myth if you like that when the USA went to the moon, they were trying to develop this new pen to be able to write in space, upside down, vertical, on different materials and such. A high technology, space age stuff and such. USSR back then, used a pencil

Point is that if you have an electronic device, it can be made waterproof. For God's sake GoPros are up to 60m and they cannot create a waterproof shell? . But remember that these are tested to their limits. 47 degrees in the shade this year.... Leave it on in the sun and you will need two fans running to protect it

Quote:
I don't doubt an electronic 'all in one' device such as the OffroadNAVI would be an awesome device (it's the first time I've seen one of those particular units) for trail riding and general travel - and I've always thought an iPad Mini in a tough box would be an excellent 'dashboard' on a trail bike - running for example Garmin GPS software in conjunction with Google Maps/Earth and whatever else you fancied, in a decent sized screen - but I cannot see competition organisers, nor the competitors themselves wanting to risk a DNF (or even their lives) on a single piece of equipment, and especially an electronic one?

Yes these things can be made tough - but even the ERTF GPS UNIK and Iritrack devices used on FIM/Dakar events fail, and those are military specification and unavailable to buy - and whatismore they are not fundamental to your navigation.
Jx
^ This
If you have paid anything from 10 to 100k to enter an international, large event. Were you would ship your bike etc. Would you go with two of these devices? And risk a dnf because of the 40% ? In 100 riders, 40 will be left without a unit. Let's say 20-20 (failure-crash). How many people are left without a roadbook if they do not crash (i.e. from a mech. failure) ? And even when the electronics fail, you have a manual knok there. Who on earth would buy, even today, a roadbook without manual knobs? None.

It is the same with every singe device. We put so much money on the bikes, engine, clothes, rider protection, everything. So that we reach the finish line.

As Jenny said, in a rally race, navigation plays the most important role. Screw with the screen of the electronic roadbook and you are blind. Finito. Period. You are wating for somebody to taxi along. And then, once you put the back up unit you are running without a spare anymore for the rest of the rally. Of course, you will ask ''how many roadooks you have? '' . One main and the spares come cheap. One with the motor and everything and then you can have 3-4 manual units so that you crash the hell out of them.

Technology is there, but I think because it is dedicated it wont come cheap.Military specs come at an expense. And from my research, it is very, very expensive to design, test, destroy etc to get the milspec to a product...

For the touring, I am all in. I even want to buy one
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640 Armageddon screwed with this post 01-20-2014 at 07:08 AM
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Old 01-20-2014, 07:12 AM   #1825
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Progress for ya

Why use ceramic ballbarings in the first place?
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Old 01-20-2014, 07:14 AM   #1826
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Originally Posted by tehdutchie View Post
Progress for ya

Why use ceramic ballbarings in the first place?
Ceramic, not electric

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640 Armageddon screwed with this post 01-20-2014 at 07:45 AM
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Old 01-22-2014, 02:27 AM   #1827
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Unfortunately this Chinese prototype shop didn't do a great job. Inaccurate and rough machining, didn't even drill holes all the way through or tap them!

I think I'm pretty happy with the concept though. No wider/taller than the stock husaberg/ktm block but includes tripmaster buttons. So horn, turn signals etc are exactly where you are used to them being. Roadbook toggle underneath. Toggle sits a little lower than RNS/F2R but I think it still works.

What do you guys think?

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Old 01-22-2014, 04:23 AM   #1828
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Originally Posted by Gany View Post
Unfortunately this Chinese prototype shop didn't do a great job. Inaccurate and rough machining, didn't even drill holes all the way through or tap them!

I think I'm pretty happy with the concept though. No wider/taller than the stock husaberg/ktm block but includes tripmaster buttons. So horn, turn signals etc are exactly where you are used to them being. Roadbook toggle underneath. Toggle sits a little lower than RNS/F2R but I think it still works.

What do you guys think?

Attachment 315216
As per the design process, yehaa!!!!!
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Old 01-22-2014, 01:32 PM   #1829
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gany View Post
Unfortunately this Chinese prototype shop didn't do a great job. Inaccurate and rough machining, didn't even drill holes all the way through or tap them!

I think I'm pretty happy with the concept though. No wider/taller than the stock husaberg/ktm block but includes tripmaster buttons. So horn, turn signals etc are exactly where you are used to them being. Roadbook toggle underneath. Toggle sits a little lower than RNS/F2R but I think it still works.

What do you guys think?

Attachment 315216
The design looks good and perfect for the likes of me who are struggling for bar space for the remote. Just let down by the Chinese materials/finish I guess.
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Old 01-22-2014, 04:17 PM   #1830
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gany View Post
Unfortunately this Chinese prototype shop didn't do a great job. Inaccurate and rough machining, didn't even drill holes all the way through or tap them!

I think I'm pretty happy with the concept though. No wider/taller than the stock husaberg/ktm block but includes tripmaster buttons. So horn, turn signals etc are exactly where you are used to them being. Roadbook toggle underneath. Toggle sits a little lower than RNS/F2R but I think it still works.

What do you guys think?

Attachment 315216



Nice!


Did you find a good source for the buttons?
FYI: I found that there is a german online retailer that sells them for only 2.05€ a piece (They only carry the green, red an black ones, though. They do also carry the square ones, same colours).
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