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Old 04-11-2012, 11:11 AM   #346
RuckedUp
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round two

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Old 04-11-2012, 03:11 PM   #347
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Looks good....now if you want to get fancy you can get some of the rubber bushings and fit them to the holes in the 4 mounting holes on the bracket...helps to isolate the roadbook a little more.
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Old 04-11-2012, 05:02 PM   #348
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So Ive started my JVO inspired nav tower project and am looking for advice. I designed a mounting block and backing plates and had them cut from 5000 series aluminium. Backing plates run inside the tube and have been drilled and tapped for 8mm bolts. There is 1mm rubber between the parts and the bike frame.

My questions at this point are:
- am i asking for trouble using aluminium for the backing plates (will the threads hold or should i have used steel)?
- will the stainless bolts seize or cause galvonic corrosion in the aluminium? Should i use loctite/anti seize of some sort?

Next question is can i used countersunk bolts in 3mm sheet aluminium or is it too thin?

Thanks in advance.




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Old 04-12-2012, 12:24 AM   #349
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Making progress

Finished the add-on mount for the Pacemaker and now I'm ready for some early morning testing in a couple of days. Thanks HDB Paul for helping me get this far with a setup and everyone else I've been pinging for input.





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Old 04-12-2012, 03:19 AM   #350
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20 cents worth...

While there are some really nice pieces of workmanship and cnc engineering/fabrication being presented in this thread...

Just a quick rule of thumb here boy's...

Generally speaking it is advantageous from the aspect of being able to read the roadbook/ICO at speed to have it mounted as high up and forward as practical. GENERALLY this is done using some form of headstock/frame mounting and a navigation tower/fairing that mounts from the bikes chassis. This takes both the weight off the bars/steering AND affords a somewhat more robust mount/protection for the all important navigation equipment - roadbook holder, ICO & GPS etc.

IF mounting the nav gear to the handlebars/triple clamps (which is adequate for the smaller rallies/rallye lite scenario... where only tripmeter/roadbook holder is necessary... it's generally regarded that lower/closer to the bars/crossbrace is better/more practical.

The reason for this is three phased:

1. Vision forward/ability to get chest up over the bars in technical terrain improves.

2. Crash survivability of nav equipment... as opposed to a chassis/headstock mounted nav tower/fairing... the roadbook holder is pretty exposed when perched up out fron of the bars... the lower/closer to the bars... less likelyhood it will end up pretzel like.

3. Weight/pendulum effect on the steering. No matter how much aluminium, unobtainium material one uses, the roadbook holder, ICO and mounts are going to add approximately 1,8 to 2,5 kilograms of weight to the front end... the further forward of the steering head these are... the GREATER the pendulum effect this weight is going to have over the steering of the bike... YES you can counteract this with steering damper (and adjusted spring rate/valving of the forks) but the further "out there" it is... the more that you will notice points 1, 2 & 3.


The reason that I make mention of this, was looking at the most recent post of pilo... who looks to have done a great job of fab and set up on his CRF... Most likely from an ergonomic and ease of reading perspective, this set up is easy on the eyes... requires the rider to use minimal effort to drop the eyes from reading the terrain, to read the rb/ICO.

I don't know how many desert rallies/navigation rallies you have participated in pilo... but my first reaction at looking at you build is;

... one trip over the bars, and that thousand dollars or so of beautifully crafted bracketry, road book holder and tripmeter are going to look like;



as a word of advice... I would suggest retaining the basic design principle, but try and get it back down a little closer to the bars/crossbrace.



Sure this may mean that you have to drop your line of sight to read a tad more... and most likely you will have to come to another solution for the route of the front brake line, so as not to hook up on the roadbook holder when hitting braking compression bumps/whoops...

But I just can't see your set up (as shown)... being all that crash tolerant... I might even suggest (not knowing exactly what material you used of course) that the mounting plate looks rather thin in regards to material thickness. Although the f2R roadbook and tripmeter are not THAT heavy... with the constant vibration and bumps experienced in a desert rally (and I don't mean just blasting dow fire roads)... I would not be too surpised to see that design fatigue and fail at the narrowest point, where you have CNC'd out the center piece (as seen from above).


Good luck with the testing!
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Old 04-12-2012, 04:14 AM   #351
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Good points well put Troy.
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Old 04-12-2012, 05:06 AM   #352
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Great post Troy, also add that one trip over bars in into the RB will either smash your chin or break your sternum.....both of which i have done.

Quote:
Originally Posted by troy safari carpente View Post
While there are some really nice pieces of workmanship and cnc engineering/fabrication being presented in this thread...

Just a quick rule of thumb here boy's...

Generally speaking it is advantageous from the aspect of being able to read the roadbook/ICO at speed to have it mounted as high up and forward as practical. GENERALLY this is done using some form of headstock/frame mounting and a navigation tower/fairing that mounts from the bikes chassis. This takes both the weight off the bars/steering AND affords a somewhat more robust mount/protection for the all important navigation equipment - roadbook holder, ICO & GPS etc.

IF mounting the nav gear to the handlebars/triple clamps (which is adequate for the smaller rallies/rallye lite scenario... where only tripmeter/roadbook holder is necessary... it's generally regarded that lower/closer to the bars/crossbrace is better/more practical.

The reason for this is three phased:

1. Vision forward/ability to get chest up over the bars in technical terrain improves.

2. Crash survivability of nav equipment... as opposed to a chassis/headstock mounted nav tower/fairing... the roadbook holder is pretty exposed when perched up out fron of the bars... the lower/closer to the bars... less likelyhood it will end up pretzel like.

3. Weight/pendulum effect on the steering. No matter how much aluminium, unobtainium material one uses, the roadbook holder, ICO and mounts are going to add approximately 1,8 to 2,5 kilograms of weight to the front end... the further forward of the steering head these are... the GREATER the pendulum effect this weight is going to have over the steering of the bike... YES you can counteract this with steering damper (and adjusted spring rate/valving of the forks) but the further "out there" it is... the more that you will notice points 1, 2 & 3.


The reason that I make mention of this, was looking at the most recent post of pilo... who looks to have done a great job of fab and set up on his CRF... Most likely from an ergonomic and ease of reading perspective, this set up is easy on the eyes... requires the rider to use minimal effort to drop the eyes from reading the terrain, to read the rb/ICO.

I don't know how many desert rallies/navigation rallies you have participated in pilo... but my first reaction at looking at you build is;

... one trip over the bars, and that thousand dollars or so of beautifully crafted bracketry, road book holder and tripmeter are going to look like;



as a word of advice... I would suggest retaining the basic design principle, but try and get it back down a little closer to the bars/crossbrace.



Sure this may mean that you have to drop your line of sight to read a tad more... and most likely you will have to come to another solution for the route of the front brake line, so as not to hook up on the roadbook holder when hitting braking compression bumps/whoops...

But I just can't see your set up (as shown)... being all that crash tolerant... I might even suggest (not knowing exactly what material you used of course) that the mounting plate looks rather thin in regards to material thickness. Although the f2R roadbook and tripmeter are not THAT heavy... with the constant vibration and bumps experienced in a desert rally (and I don't mean just blasting dow fire roads)... I would not be too surpised to see that design fatigue and fail at the narrowest point, where you have CNC'd out the center piece (as seen from above).


Good luck with the testing!
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Old 04-12-2012, 08:25 AM   #353
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Great points guys. As my monstrosity was coming together I had those very same thoughts, so the feedback from the experienced crew is valuable. I mostly just toying around for now try to see where this might go. Some questions/comments:

Quote:
Crash survivability of nav equipment... as opposed to a chassis/headstock mounted nav tower/fairing... the roadbook holder is pretty exposed when perched up out fron of the bars... the lower/closer to the bars... less likelyhood it will end up pretzel like.
Really how much different is this that a regular rally setup with a fairing. I'm sure the fair provides some protection, but ultimately if you loop the bike on rocks you are go to have damage on the nav gear.

Quote:
... one trip over the bars, and that thousand dollars or so of beautifully crafted bracketry, road book holder and tripmeter are going to look like;
The distance on my setup are pretty similar to Charlies bar mounted bracket from RMS. Can anyone comment of the crash worthyness of that setup? I've never heard any complaints.

Quote:
also add that one trip over bars in into the RB will either smash your chin or break your sternum.....both of which i have done.
How is this any different than any Rally bike/setup? I've wacked my chest on the fairing of my 950ADV more than once.

It's all a compromise I guess. Having to look down/back from a standing position above second gear is something that I don't like to do. I built it to test it out. We'll see how it likes the whoops...
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Old 04-12-2012, 10:33 AM   #354
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All good points guys, I love this thread because of all the different ideas, a design lab, some appeal to me, some don't, some I just have to try, for me this thread has a lot of value right there.

So as the idiot that designed and built these prototypes of Phil's and Aaron's I can truely say I have no experience running a rally, so I have to live through you guys.

The design parameters for these were roadbook up front and ODO between the roadbook and bars, had to install easy, quickly and work with my handguards. The point in space that the road book sits was taken from many sources and made adjustable for personal preference. The one point I would stress is that it's not meant to be a Dakar setup, but for weekenders and as such it was built to test the concept. it is inexpensive and relatively light weight.

The first ones were made of 3/8" material you can stand on them and lift the bike with them they were overkill and the next were then 5/16". Phil's is a setup piece for bending and only 1/4", they're all 6061-T6 and I'll bet you Troy a 6pack of your finest Aussy IPA to a 6pack of Dales Pale Ale that it survives what Phil will be using it for, Jimmy Lewis's class. Had he wanted it for the Mex 1000, I would have had to set up and made more, it's to test the concept and go from there, and as many have used this thread for constructive criticism, after trying it myself, I already have my answer and the next versions are very different.

It's easy to criticize any weekender setup in view of a Dakar setup, very few have the passion or budget necessary for that, with an unlimited budget and time, I could come up with an exotic design with exotic materials, few could afford it and like Ned said earlier it's about getting out there.

As an unexperienced rally watcher it appears that there are only 2 styles out there, frame mounted and bar mounted, it's pretty well settled that the frame mounted is better, but that it's really unnecessary unless the rider will be racing. For those of us that want to experience a rally or a roadbook ride the options are from Tupperware to MD.

For me personally, crashing is a fact of life and I can only imagine that with all the gear up there it would be painful in the wallet too, but even as I watch Quinn Codys unfortunate yard sale, if you're racing there will be no survivability for the gear if you crash at speed. So I think it very wise to be running at 75% if you'd like a chance to finish in one piece.

But show me what is survivable, to what degree and all the variables, in the back of your mind the threat of ruining all that expensive gear is one of the entrance fees.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Gany View Post
So Ive started my JVO inspired nav tower project and am looking for advice. I designed a mounting block and backing plates and had them cut from 5000 series aluminium. Backing plates run inside the tube and have been drilled and tapped for 8mm bolts. There is 1mm rubber between the parts and the bike frame.

My questions at this point are:
- am i asking for trouble using aluminium for the backing plates (will the threads hold or should i have used steel)?
- will the stainless bolts seize or cause galvonic corrosion in the aluminium? Should i use loctite/anti seize of some sort?

Next question is can i used countersunk bolts in 3mm sheet aluminium or is it too thin?

Thanks in advance.
Gany, I've looked at bolt on frame mounts back and forth and just can't get past that welding is the way to go and the way I'll be doing it, but here's a concept that I didn't make so don't know if it has any value.



As for the backing plates if it were me I'd back them up with NyLocs, 5000 series is typically pretty soft and those threads would be at risk of deformation and then loosening from the abuse. Hardened stainless or a good high grade bolt and just check torques occasionally.
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Old 04-12-2012, 11:58 AM   #355
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pilo View Post
The distance on my setup are pretty similar to Charlies bar mounted bracket from RMS. Can anyone comment of the crash worthyness of that setup? I've never heard any complaints.
I'll comment on my experience with Charlie's set up. Crash worthiness; In the dunes I had the front burry in a crevice and took the road book hard to the chest. The complete set up rotated, the road book on it's mount and the road book mount on the bars. General use; reading the road book and odo required more downward looking than my Dakar set up but worked great for what I was using it for. The road book mounted on the bike I road with Charlie's set up was closer to the bars than the proto-type pictured below as well as to how RockedUp has his mounted.

I understand the above set up that Aaron and Pilo are using are proto-types. They will probably work fine but as others have mentioned there are a few things I'd consider in a design such as purpose, function, durability and safety.

Looking at the purpose of the design for what it's intended end use is, a nav tower system for Dakar is unique in the amount of electronics that need to be carried. I would not compare the Dakar style to one needed for a more basic rally/event that only requires a road book and odo as they serve a different purpose.

The function of above mount is questionable in the mounting location of the road book and odo but really needs to be determined by the end user's preferences. I would want the odo on top. The road book only needs a quick glance to read the notes of upcoming directions and cautions but the odo requires a constant eye as it reveals when the directions or cautions are physically taking place. I read the road book for a few upcoming notes then kept a constant eye on the odo in anticipation of the described event.

Durability of the proto-type can be improved by beefing up the plate thickness if found to be needed but my concern would be more in the lack of any flexibility in the mount both for durability and safety. I would prefer a design that can rotate or pivot in order to help prevent crash damage to the unit as well as add safety for the rider.
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Old 04-12-2012, 01:21 PM   #356
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Thumb A reply in kind...

Quote:
Originally Posted by pilo View Post
The distance on my setup are pretty similar to Charlies bar mounted bracket from RMS. Can anyone comment of the crash worthyness of that setup? I've never heard any complaints.
I don't have a tape measure on me, and it might be that the protrusion of your "set up" is accentuated by the fact that you run an MX style front plate... as oposed to an enduro headlight/mini windsheild/cowling up front, as on most rallye lite bikes... but BC's comments further down (who has ridden with Charlies TRPA nav bracket set up) seems to support my observation that it sits "out there" considerably more than other bar/triple clamp mounted designs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by theantipaul View Post
The first ones were made of 3/8" material you can stand on them and lift the bike with them they were overkill and the next were then 5/16". Phil's is a setup piece for bending and only 1/4", they're all 6061-T6 and I'll bet you Troy a 6pack of your finest Aussy IPA to a 6pack of Dales Pale Ale that it survives what Phil will be using it for, Jimmy Lewis's class. Had he wanted it for the Mex 1000, I would have had to set up and made more, it's to test the concept and go from there, and as many have used this thread for constructive criticism, after trying it myself, I already have my answer and the next versions are very different.

I'm sure the material you used is of the best quality for the purpose... That it is strong in a static application, that i do not doubt, but as Bill also stated, sometimes "bombproof ridgid" is not the optimal solution.


At a casual glance I'd estimate that the T6 alloy plate you have machined, which is bolted solid to the four triple clamp bolts; pjojects forward approximately 300mm or so...
So, just as a light hearted comparison... if I bolted a square builders shovel blade onto your bar clamps facing forward and told you to go out and do some hot laps of a whooped out MX track... you tell me I had rocks in me head... wouldn't you?

It's easy to criticize any weekender setup in view of a Dakar setup, very few have the passion or budget necessary for that, with an unlimited budget and time, I could come up with an exotic design with exotic materials, few could afford it and like Ned said earlier it's about getting out there.

Mate, at no point did I criticise your set-up (if that comment in fact pertains to my post)... I did in fact, compliment both the craftsmanship and quality of the work seen in many of the builds featured in this thread. Nor am I comparing the "weekender setup" to that of a DAKAR setup. I am the first to acknowledge that a full DAKAR navigation tower is overkill on most "rallye lite" bikes; where only roadbook and trip meter ar necessary.


Again as BC wrote... the full "DAKAR tower/fariring" style of nav cockpit is really only necessary to house all the extra GPS, irri-trac repeater and auxilliary electrics that are required for Dakar and similar events of that nature. I have built, prepped, ridden and raced dozens of different "rallye lite" set ups (some designs more successful than others) and many of them have been far from factory budget builds... but all of the comments I made are merely observations, offered with the goal of sharing some of those experiences and affording yourselves the chance to learn from where others have failed via trial and error.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BC61 View Post
I'll comment on my experience with Charlie's set up. Crash worthiness; In the dunes I had the front burry in a crevice and took the road book hard to the chest. The complete set up rotated, the road book on it's mount and the road book mount on the bars.

I understand the above set up that Aaron and Pilo are using are proto-types. They will probably work fine but as others have mentioned there are a few things I'd consider in a design such as purpose, function, durability and safety.

Durability of the proto-type can be improved by beefing up the plate thickness if found to be needed but my concern would be more in the lack of any flexibility in the mount both for durability and safety. I would prefer a design that can rotate or pivot in order to help prevent crash damage to the unit as well as add safety for the rider.


And here I believe it is that Bill has struck on a theme that is pivotal (haha ) to this discussion... The TRPA handlebar navbracket system has - as an inbuilt function of its design - TWO critical points which allow the construction to either rotate/pivot (the handlebar mount and the roadbook holder perch)... as opposed to flex, bend or break.

As Bill described, there is the possibility therefore that this contruction pivots when an "over the bars" occurs as opposed to being creamed.

Sure it's a given that any momentus trip over the bars/loop out is going to wad up the nav equipment... that's been the case as long as moto rallies have existed... but having function, durability AND crash survivability as design parameters for a rallye lite set up is not remiss... as crashing is an almost inevitable part of the brief.

In parting I will say that the majority of the builds I have done in the past fall into three categories...

1. Full on frame mounted navtower/fairing concept (various LC4 Rallye 640, LC4 Rallye 660 and LC4 620 Adventure between 1997 and 2005 as well as my 950 SE Rallye project in 2006/07) with MD roadrunner/double ICO's.

2. Cross barce mounted MD roadbook/ICO "rallye minimalist" set up (on various RMX 250's and XR 600's in the 90's)

3. KTM roadbook frame mount based builds, using MD roadrunner/and ICO on MD adapter bracket. These have been on; KTM 300 EXC, 450 EXC, 690 R and on two Husaberg 450FE's.

Having weighed up all the pro's and cons... I can say that the NEXT "rallye lite" build I do, will most likely be based on the TRPA style handlebar mount concept... mostly because of the ease and simplicity of mounting, the pivot/flexibility aspect in case of a crash... and the possibility to quickly remove/replace the unit IN the case of a major wad up.

Cheers and happy tinkering... as theantipaul wrote... if nothing else, there lots of ideas being sprouted and shared.
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Old 04-12-2012, 01:24 PM   #357
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BC61 View Post
I would want the odo on top. The road book only needs a quick glance to read the notes of upcoming directions and cautions but the odo requires a constant eye as it reveals when the directions or cautions are physically taking place. I read the road book for a few upcoming notes then kept a constant eye on the odo in anticipation of the described event.

I would prefer a design that can rotate or pivot in order to help prevent crash damage to the unit as well as add safety for the rider.

Hi Bill, thanks for the input. The next versions are radically different and incorporate the safety concern you have with a mount similar to what I made up for Seth with a hinge joint, but more compact. There's a fine line between having an ability to rotate and having it move inadvertently while taking a hit, but that's more of a setup thing.

The durability I'm not too concerned with after riding with mine, but the next version does away with the computer cutout and instead sinks the roadbook into a pocket to provide a bit of protection while removing unwanted weight. I still have no illusions that in the event of an impact things will go south quick.

I' wasn't a fan of the functionality of the ODO of the prototypes either and did change things up on the second setup.

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showp...&postcount=247

I have a decent size design project due soon and my drawing time is limited, but I'll get it up for scrutiny as soon as I can.



Troy, please do not take offense to any of this, as I do not, for me this is all learning and building a better mouse trap.


Here's an idea of the point in space with the roadbook in the position closest to the rider.



And truly criticism is welcome!
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Old 04-12-2012, 02:11 PM   #358
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Looks remarkable like the ones Rally-Raid products have been selling





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Old 04-12-2012, 02:32 PM   #359
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Yes Beanie, those are the pictures that inspired the design a few weeks and pages back.
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Old 04-12-2012, 03:19 PM   #360
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Beaney, I looked at the RR product but decided to have Paul make something for us instead. I don't care for ICO's and I already owned a Watchdog, that Paul already made mounting brackets for, so we went that route. After the MX 1000, I plan on making some roadbook routes and the last thing I want is a vine or a big tree branch destroying my $300 computer
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