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Old 10-24-2013, 09:18 AM   #9781
SteveAZ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atlas cached View Post
I said 3.80 or older.

(make a complete archival copy of your Montana before loading older firmware)

The results will be very different, and probably not in the direction you might expect.
You've piqued my curiosity. When I next do my archiving, backing up, organizing and updating, I'll go ahead and throw 3.8 or older, which do you recommend? I'll run a couple of hours or so in the yard, update it to the latest, run that for the same time.... Mebbe this weekend. I've got an outing in the White Mtns. coming up so it may wait until after that....
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Old 10-24-2013, 09:29 AM   #9782
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Originally Posted by HogWild View Post
Wouldn't matter to me either. Two or three meters one way or the other is of no consequence. If a couple of meters of uncertainty over a short period of time is too much, then GPS is not the right tool for the job.

Also, is the 76 filtering the data in order to improve its stationary accuracy? IF so, then that might make it LESS accurate when in motion. The Montana may actually be giving the most accurate data that the GPS system has to offer, and only appears worse because it's not hiding the true results through filtering. A proper test for moto use would be a test while in motion, including errors due to time delays introduced in filtering.
The filtering we're speaking of is for the track direction computation not the position. This filter not being up to the task of dealing with all the position noise is most likely what causes the map or icon to swing when you stop and the compass is disabled.

The 76 is not filtering the data the way you describe. I've compared it to the uBlox and even some OEM GPS's where we can peak at the raw data and their results are similar enough, I'd bet that if I fed them from the same antenna they'd give strikingly similar data.

In fact, that reminds me. When I got the exceptional results (<1m RMS if I reacall) on the 76 a few years ago it was using a very expensive survey antenna mounted on the roof of a two story building on flat open ground (very good for reducing multipath). Antennas are way more important than you might think! The 76 (and x76/x96, 60, etc.) antennas are better than the crap little patch in the floptana which may be one of the reasons it has such poor positioning.
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Old 10-24-2013, 09:30 AM   #9783
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveAZ View Post
You've piqued my curiosity. When I next do my archiving, backing up, organizing and updating, I'll go ahead and throw 3.8 or older, which do you recommend? I'll run a couple of hours or so in the yard, update it to the latest, run that for the same time.... Mebbe this weekend. I've got an outing in the White Mtns. coming up so it may wait until after that....
3.80 should do just fine.

I look forward to seeing your results :)
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Old 10-24-2013, 09:35 AM   #9784
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Originally Posted by Emmbeedee View Post
The preceding makes no difference to me. There may be things which are not perfect about the Montana, but is there a better unit you can buy for a reasonable price? No.

Don't even think of suggesting a 76. Been there, done that, had enough of that limited kind of gps. It may track slightly better but I'm not using my gps for Surveying, so I don't care. Its limitations in every other way are far too frustrating to me.

The Montana is still the best gps you can get at the moment, IMHO.

No need to reply SteveAZ - you're welcome to your opinions as I am to mine.
That's fine. It was like I said to BillUA, that some people like it fine and it might be ok for him. Funny how when he said that he felt it wasn't going to be suitable for him people started trolling him by suggesting he wasn't up to the task of using the unit and then comparing pilots (his personal career) to bus drivers.

Some people like the emperor's new clothes. I see them for what they are and I don't mind spending a little time to gather *objective* data to back it up. I also speak the good when I see it.

Saying it's the "best gps you can get at the moment" without the use cases is just a vacuous statement. That's not just an opinion!
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Old 10-24-2013, 10:39 AM   #9785
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Rotfl.

If you think I'll accept that because someone says they fly a 747, I should believe they can make an informed decision about something as complex as the Montana after playing with it for 12 hours, you're wrong.

None of his posts said anything at all except that he made a wrong decision, and was going to return it. Sounds fairly immature to me. Not the kind of judgment I'd want in the guy in the cockpit.

But that's not the fundamental question.

Is the Montana the best gps for me? Yes it is, based on experience using it for more than two years.


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Old 10-24-2013, 11:34 AM   #9786
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I accept that someone that flies a 747 is much more likely than a non-pilot to understand whether or not a little consumer GPS, that is full of foibles and flaws, is not going to meet his expectations in short order. Not accepting that likelihood seems foolish.

One could argue that maybe the 40yrs flying is just internets BS boasting, there's plenty of that around, but to suggest that someone who actually does have the cumulated time of training and experience with navigation and electronic navigation equipment that the experience would suggest, can't extrapolate that all to the appropriateness of an arguably crappy little handheld he has *in his hands* to his use case seems pretty ignorant.


Aside from that, suggesting he couldn't understand it, and likening his career to a bus driver is trolling. Not very good trolling either if you ask me, although he did nibble. Whoever put that forward should try and be at least a little more subtle next time.
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Old 10-24-2013, 02:12 PM   #9787
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FYI: I don't own a Montana.

While the track recording variation between units is interesting I'm not sure it warrants several pages of posts in this thread as I question if the results are an issue for 99% of Montana users.

Having utilized GPS navigation for several decades I can say that while I welcomed Selective Availability (SA) being turned off in 2000, and the resulting improvement in precision (from 100 meters to 20 meters), doing so didn't effect my ability to navigate in any significant way.
And again about 2005 when WAAS and DGPS became available (and precision improved to near 1 meter) I could see the improvement of location error as show on the satellite page of my GPS but again found little change in my ability to navigate.

Sure when SA was removed I could see if I was in the southbound vs northbound lanes of an Interstate, and with WAAS which northbound lane, but when traveling roads or in the back-country I find I do not require the precision required for an FAA Instrument Approach or to fly a smart bomb through a window.

Bruce
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Old 10-24-2013, 02:46 PM   #9788
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Originally Posted by mcnut View Post
... I find I do not require the precision ... to fly a smart bomb through a window.

Bruce
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Old 10-24-2013, 03:43 PM   #9789
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BMW GPS prep and Montana?

anybody have a BMW that came with the GPS prep and mounted the Montana?

I don't expect the Montana to fit the mount, or interface with the bike at all, but can the mount be removed and the Montana powered mount be installed in its place?
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Old 10-24-2013, 03:50 PM   #9790
SteveAZ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnut View Post
FYI: I don't own a Montana.

While the track recording variation between units is interesting I'm not sure it warrants several pages of posts in this thread as I question if the results are an issue for 99% of Montana users.

Having utilized GPS navigation for several decades I can say that while I welcomed Selective Availability (SA) being turned off in 2000, and the resulting improvement in precision (from 100 meters to 20 meters), doing so didn't effect my ability to navigate in any significant way.
And again about 2005 when WAAS and DGPS became available (and precision improved to near 1 meter) I could see the improvement of location error as show on the satellite page of my GPS but again found little change in my ability to navigate....
What seems to affect many users and prompted these pages of data, which I agree is more for the curious, is the unit losing the track direction causing the map (or icon) orientation to go off randomly when you come to a stop. This is a pretty big nuisance since when we want to be able to come to a stop and glance at the unit to make decisions on which way to go. It's *much* harder to do this when the unit loses the track direction.

Even units that came out prior to SA being removed did a better job of this! Admittedly they had their track direction GNSS position noise filters set to higher velocity / position shift profile which would cause you to have to move more or faster for them to reacquire a new track direction. Many units that were supported during the time SA was removed had firmware updates that noticeably increased their track direction sensitivity too.

The floptana probably should have its filter profile changed in the direction of these pre-SA removed units in order to prevent the often complained of problem.

The discussion evolved into the position error due the floptana's position error being so poor is almost certainly aggravating the initial discussion regarding the track direction / map orientation issue. I was actually surprised by it, I thought a new generation unit that according to Garmin "Locates your position quickly and precisely and maintains it even in heavy cover and deep canyons" would be good. This at least overselling if not an out-and-out lie. I suppose it's a matter of what "precision" is but in terms of contemporary units >15 feet doesn't seem very precise. It took nearly ideal conditions to get it even close to decades older units. Forget about canyons and cover. What a joke.

I agree that aside from the significant track direction problem, the position error is not a huge deal for most vehicular travel. It is a potential problem for handheld use - the very use this unit is primarily intended for (at least according to some people)! It is probably not very good for geocaching, I don't do that but it is marketed to that crowd.

I do non-wheeled-vehicle activities where the precision is important. Exploring areas without roads/trails (plenty here in AZ), leaving stashes to lighten loads when transitioning activities (e.g. moto to packing/overnighting, summiting, border crossing, etc.) and night time on-the-water use where the shoreline is above the eye line (also common out here).

I've also been "surveying" positions for some machine control testing. Averaging on the 76 usually gets me to 1m, good enough for the testing. I had been disappointed with the results I was getting with floptana which also prompted me to go ahead and test the unit. The tests don't take much of my time - they're old hat.
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Old 10-24-2013, 05:09 PM   #9791
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Failure to boot

I was cleaning out some old gpx and IMG files from the mSD card when my Montana froze and shutdown. When I try to restart it the Garmin logo appears and it just sits there and never boots. Every 10 seconds the logo dims for a second. Tried all the usual stuff - remove card, remove battery, power from USB, power from AMPS mount, hold down top left corner of screen. Nothing works. My first Montana lasted 9 months before internal antenna detached and Garmin replaced it. I've had this one 11 mths so it's out of warranty.
Anyone have any idea how to get it fired up?
Bob
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Old 10-24-2013, 05:42 PM   #9792
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobM View Post
I was cleaning out some old gpx and IMG files from the mSD card when my Montana froze and shutdown. When I try to restart it the Garmin logo appears and it just sits there and never boots. Every 10 seconds the logo dims for a second. Tried all the usual stuff - remove card, remove battery, power from USB, power from AMPS mount, hold down top left corner of screen. Nothing works. My first Montana lasted 9 months before internal antenna detached and Garmin replaced it. I've had this one 11 mths so it's out of warranty.
Anyone have any idea how to get it fired up?
Bob
Is the uSD card still installed? If so, remove it, and try again. Use forced mass storage mode if it will not boot normally, and remove all non essential data from the device, then reboot again.
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Old 10-24-2013, 05:48 PM   #9793
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TowPro View Post
anybody have a BMW that came with the GPS prep and mounted the Montana?

I don't expect the Montana to fit the mount, or interface with the bike at all, but can the mount be removed and the Montana powered mount be installed in its place?
I just mounted my rugged mount to an 09 GSA. I used the bar mount adapter and put it just above the gauges then used a CAN-BUS extension to power it from the outlet in the beak.

Not sure if that helps you but I could post some pictures if you'd like.
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Old 10-24-2013, 07:32 PM   #9794
BobM
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GPS not booting

Quote:
Originally Posted by atlas cached View Post
Is the uSD card still installed? If so, remove it, and try again.
The mSD card is NOT installed.

Quote:
... Use forced mass storage mode if it will not boot normally, and remove all non essential data from the device, then reboot again.
I tried to follow the intsructions on your wiki:
Forced USB Mass Storage Mode

The following procedure forces your Montana into USB Mass Storage Mode so that you can delete/remove/rename any recently added files:
1.Remove all batteries from your Montana
Done
2.Connect the Montana to your computer with a USB cable
Done
3.As the Montana powers up and begins the boot process, immediately press and hold the power button without disconnecting the USB cable until the Montana powers down
Tried but it just goes to the GARMIN logo and stays there. However, I hear the computer beep as though it recognizes a USB device, but when I look in Explorer there is no USB drive shown.
4.Press and Hold the power button for 30 seconds, or until the USB symbol appears on the Montana display
Couldn't get past step 3.

I contacted Garmin support today and they asked if I had Geocaches loaded. Replied NO but not heard any more yet.

Any other suggestions?
Thanks
Bob
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Old 10-24-2013, 08:47 PM   #9795
kbroderick
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveAZ View Post
In fact, that reminds me. When I got the exceptional results (<1m RMS if I reacall) on the 76 a few years ago it was using a very expensive survey antenna mounted on the roof of a two story building on flat open ground (very good for reducing multipath). Antennas are way more important than you might think! The 76 (and x76/x96, 60, etc.) antennas are better than the crap little patch in the floptana which may be one of the reasons it has such poor positioning.
Have you tried the Montana with an external antenna? I'd be curious to see what you came up with. I'd also be curious to see if another Montana had similar drift issues, as there have been some reported issues with the internal antenna connection and I'm wondering if perhaps your Montana is exhibiting some form of those.
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