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Old 03-20-2013, 05:04 AM   #1591
Queen of Spades
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Is there a way to make that target figure dynamic, so as new donations come in the figure decreases? Having a live and decreasing target will make it more like a competition for us. Maybe highlight folks who pony up more than a grand, 500, or 100 clams.

I realized that a couple of my projects need to be rewritten as well. Nothing as complex as DSM website, but still more work to be done.
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Old 03-20-2013, 05:25 AM   #1592
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Not without doing 1000s more of work or paying someone else 5% for the service. I'm not doing it. None of that shit really matters. Either people are going to open their wallet or they are not. The service is either worth saving and people get the memo that they need to help out or they don't. I cannot do anymore, you guys need to actually kick I both your money and ask your friends who use the site to do the same. That is the only solution.


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Originally Posted by Queen of Spades View Post
Is there a way to make that target figure dynamic, so as new donations come in the figure decreases? Having a live and decreasing target will make it more like a competition for us. Maybe highlight folks who pony up more than a grand, 500, or 100 clams.

I realized that a couple of my projects need to be rewritten as well. Nothing as complex as DSM website, but still more work to be done.
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Old 03-20-2013, 08:06 AM   #1593
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Originally Posted by NHBill View Post
I believe that you can use a credit card on PayPal without setting up an account.

Sent from my Samsung Note 2
small print. found it. end of pay period donation made. More to follow.
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Mention to HogWild which way the wind is blowing where you're at, wait 20 minutes, and he'll post a picture of the intersection your at and a Google Earth route of how to get there.
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Old 03-21-2013, 06:00 AM   #1594
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NO!!!!! Don't let it DIE!! Your offspring deserves better!

I’m sickened to hear of your development delima. You’re an amazing developer that has created a fantastic app that provides a far more valuable tool than even the largest navigation vendors.

However, as I’ve said a couple of times, it also was an incredible bargain. $20 bucks versus around $500 for the nearest equal from the big boys. Of course, that doesn’t include the cost of providing your own hardware, but with the advent of everyone moving to smart phones, it was like the hardware for this application came free.

Anyway, one of the obvious downfalls of pricing things too low is that they often can’t be supported. It is incredible shame because to those of us that have experienced the value, we’ll be not only missing it but be suffering depression.

Personally, I think your contribution was well worth $100 and probably significantly more. Of course you wouldn’t have sold as many but maybe it would have been sustainable.

I suspect most would absolutely LOVE having advertising be a part of it if it meant it could survive. Killing it because you don’t personally like viewing advertising seems excessive. You could be an avenue for anyone in the motorcycle industry to have a very targeted marketing info channel.

Or even a subscription service might work. Especially if it could be purchased only for the summer months and maybe no support given during the off months.

Asking for donations almost never works – it is just too easy for most to just let making another contribution slide until they need it again and find it gone.

Possibly offer to turn over all the source code to someone else that wants to try supporting it? Or put it up on Source Forge for anyone to pull down and learn from and possibly revive. Or try to sell it to Garmin or one of their competitors to get them started providing a sound product without hardware. DSM is just too damn good to let die. It deserves better.

Thank you Crafty. I’ve only ridden DSM a few times but it has given me confidence that I could let my young son tear off into the Colorado mountains and never have to worry about him getting lost. I’ve certainly gotten more than my money’s worth.

NickJensen screwed with this post 03-21-2013 at 07:42 AM
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Old 03-21-2013, 06:40 AM   #1595
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Crafty: A Challenge to your view of advertising

In spite of your personal aversion to advertising, it has provided incredible value to all of us. The entire television industry has been funded largely by the public’s tolerance to a few minutes of commercials intermixed in with the good stuff. (sometimes..) And as anyone that watches the Superbowl knows, sometimes the advertising is more entertaining than even the sporting event!

And for the most part, advertising is largely responsible for the incredibly inexpensive but priceless value of the internet.

While we all complain about it, we all gain value from it. It is the primary means we as consumer’s learn of new and improved things to incorporation into our lives.

When I get a catalog from a motorcycle supply vendor I spend a lot of time just going through it looking to keep abreast of what the world has to offer.

The bazillion offerings of free or very CHEAP phone apps is an incredible value. And if we don't want that advertising we can pay a small amount to have it removed. But most don't!! That clearly reveals the real degree of it's irritation.

I don’t know the size of your user base is, but I suspect it is a valuable asset by itself. Obtaining such a targeted list isn’t easy. Perhaps you should question your aversion to it and reconsider all the ways that it might provide ways to monetize your efforts. For thousands of various products and vendors, advertising has provided the means of sustenance that conventional means could not.

I’ve come to realize that advertising is a good thing. And I’m not apart of that industry. I’m a retired electrical engineer that is just part of the daily grind…
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Old 03-21-2013, 06:49 AM   #1596
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Crafty: Another possibility

Just had another thought. I clearly don't want DSM to Die!!

Have you considered selling or giving your code to the OruxMaps developer. He obviously lives in the same mapping development world and is probably the person most familiar with what it will take to upgrade it. Plus he has long provided a mapping product strictly on the basis of donations.

Maybe he can find ways to support it or do the upgrading/maintenance for you for a percentage of future advertising or other revenues.
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Old 03-21-2013, 07:19 AM   #1597
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Crafty: Another challenge to one of your views.

Crafty: Another challenge to one of your views.

“Either people are going to open their wallet or they are not. The service is either worth saving and people get the memo that they need to help out or they don't. I cannot do anymore, you guys need to actually kick I both your money and ask your friends who use the site to do the same. That is the only solution.”

I only learned the threat to DSM by stopping by AdvRider. I only do that every few months during the off season. I suspect most of your users are still completely unaware of the situation.

I’ve watched your growth over the last couple of years and have been in awe of your development prowess and your rapid assimilation and application of electrical engineering knowledge. Your ability to make valuable and important things is impressive. If I could place a bet on JJOster, it would be far less risk than buying any stock.

As you’ve said, “Development is easy, business is hard”. True enough. A successful business needs more than a better mouse trap. I want to suggest that your comment above indicates you may still benefit from learning business practices as well as you have grasped software and electrical engineering. I do not agree that donations is the “only solution”. Do I detect a bit of resentment of the situation that could be clouding your thinking?

When you have something that is undisputedly of great value to your customers, there is a high probability of there being a solution somewhere in the mix. Too early to give up.

NickJensen screwed with this post 03-21-2013 at 07:52 AM
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Old 03-21-2013, 07:52 AM   #1598
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My aversion to advertising is personal. As much as I like you guys I am not willing engage in that (abhorrent) system for your benefit. I am sure there are strategies available make more money with the website. I'm not doing it for the money though. I'm doing this because it was a worthy goal. I'm old-fashioned. I think people ought to be responsible for their own shit. I am not looking for any way to keep this project alive. I am looking for a righteous way to do it. To me, that means the community who is interested in it will support it. The amount of money we are talking about isn't much when spread across a couple hundred people. We have thousands who use the site, if 10% of the users kick in $50 we surpass the goal. Dual sport is a niche thing. If I wanted to make money and attract eyeballs, I'd be going after Jeepers. It would have been trivial to copy this system for jeep people and increase my user base by a factor of 10. I didn't do that because my monthly income isn't large enough to subsidize that many users mapping needs (I bet that would head into the $5000/month range) and I don't have interest in this as a business. I do not believe it could grow to be large enough to feed my family so smaller is better. Plus, I like dual sport riding and don't like anything with 4 wheels.

Finally, I like free stuff like this. To me, free doesn't mean zero cost though. It means zero obligation. None of us are obliged to engage in any of this. I write the software because I want to. I see that servers lights keep blinking and the databases are backed up everyday, and the 20 hard disks that backup the website stay online because I choose to. As an example, yesterday one of two power supplies in a disk array enclosure that stores the databases and map images for the website died. I was able to get same day delivery of a power supply and the website stayed online without interruption. I don't normally talk about this sort of shit, but it happens EVERY MONTH. There is always something going on. It is just par for the course. It is why technology shit is expensive. I do it anyway. I am free to stop at any time, I just choose not to most days. With a rewrite necessary though, the idea of donating the effort required to see this happen is unattractive to me. I am exercising my freedom to not donate it. Like you though, I do not want to see it go, so I am offering to let any or all of you guys to donate the money (a proxy for my time) to see it happen. I've been doing it solo for years and I know there are plenty of users who could afford to just write the check by themselves. I've been writing the check, figuratively and literally, month in and month out for years. It's your turn now. If it doesn't happen that is OK too. I'll be disappointed that the resource is gone, but I won't feel invalidated. I have 800 days in a row of nearly a million website hits. That is all the validation I need.
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Old 03-21-2013, 08:07 AM   #1599
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Only looking for a solution..

Given that you want the community that uses it to support it, (appropriate) then charge a subscription. But asking some to give up their wealth and not of others clearly isn’t a “righteous way to do it”. You have the value, just charge a price you want for it.

Secondly, you personally say you want to continue to be able to use it. Then why wouldn’t finding a way for it to live on via other developers still benefit you? Choosing to execute it instead seems a bit spiteful.
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Old 03-21-2013, 08:20 AM   #1600
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Spiteful? It's not like I'm killing the project unless y'all pay blackmail. The website will die in spite of my wishes. Google is killing it, not me. If another developer wants to "take over", there is really nothing that needs "sharing". The website code won't work after May. That is the problem. The code has lost all it's value and needs to be rewritten. Therefore, any developer who has interest can choose to create a website like this one. The time to charge a subscription, or more specifically in my case ask for regular donations (which is my preference), was years ago. I absolutely agree that it was a grave mistake to not request small amounts in advance of a crisis so that these problems could be over come. Mea culpa. The is water under the bridge though.
If we can overcome this crisis then I won't make that mistake again. I will set a monthly donation target and keep everyone well informed about if we are meeting them.
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Old 03-21-2013, 08:34 AM   #1601
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Given that you want the community that uses it to support it, (appropriate) then charge a subscription. But asking some to give up their wealth and not of others clearly isn’t a “righteous way to do it”. You have the value, just charge a price you want for it.
We all benefit from more users (more users, more maps, more new places to ride). I don't want to put a price barrier to using the site. Still, DSM clearly (in hindsight anyway *I am an asshat for not realizing this sooner*) needs community support. Therefore, I think a system where an optional subscription is requested is sufficient to meet it's needs. If 10% of users sent in $10 a month there would be enough money to cover all the infrastructure costs and put money in the bank to cover labor costs and licensing costs as they cropped up. I totally disagree with the idea that allowing freeloaders to take advantage of the system weakens it. I believe exactly the opposite in fact. When you support something because you want to, and not because you have too, there is a significant boost in goodwill within the community. Sure, lots of people won't pay anything but others will and they will feel about themselves for doing it. They will also feel better about DSM and that is better for everyone.
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Old 03-21-2013, 08:34 AM   #1602
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Our goals are aligned.

I'm hopeful then that the plan will be successful.

I'm only interested in seeing a product I value continue on. It wasn't my purpose to change you but to help provide as many options as I could think of.

It is irrelevant what plan I see as most likely of success. This is your baby and a beautiful one at that. You have every right to do as you wish even if it should be the end of it.
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Old 03-21-2013, 09:06 AM   #1603
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Kickstarter

It blows my mind that Kickstarter would turn down your request for a page.

This seems like the perfect scenario for a Kickstarter page if there ever was one.

Do you mind elaborating on their response as to why it was turned down?





Also, when you stated up above that if 10% of users would donate $50, that you'd surprass the needed donation amount, I think that's extremely do-able.

Maybe if you can lay out that statisic differently in a short table below, people will notice more. Break it down a few ways to show "if this many people donate X amount", we'll get there. It may help to see different amounts and how many donations of said amounts are needed just because alot of consumers have mental barriers of how much they can spend on something without it feeling like "too much".


I sure hope this ends positively, this seems easy enough to save if users will step up!
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Old 03-21-2013, 09:25 AM   #1604
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Do you mind elaborating on their response as to why it was turned down?
Below is their response. It contained little detail. I was pretty disappointed truth be told. I was at an ice cream shop with my son when I got the email, so I had a double helping and it took a bit of sting away. It is hard to be cranky when your kid's face is covered in chocolate ice cream...

I last thing I want to do is have people send an amount of money that hurts. Motorcycling should be fun. Things that we do around motorcycling should be fun. I'm not willing to do this if it hurts (hence the appeal for support) and I don't want anyone else to either.

Feel free to help out this effort by breaking it down in ways that you think are helpful.

Quote:
Hi there,

Thanks for taking the time to share your project with Kickstarter.

We review projects to ensure they meet our Project Guidelines (http://www.kickstarter.com/help/guidelines), which define how Kickstarter can be used. They express our commitment to being a platform for projects in the creative arts.

Unfortunately, this project does not meet our guidelines. This isn't a judgment on the quality of this project, just a reflection of our focus.

We wish you the best as you continue to pursue this endeavor. If you have future projects that meet our focus, we hope you'll consider Kickstarter again.

Best,
Kickstarter
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Old 03-21-2013, 09:38 AM   #1605
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As an alternative to KickStarter, have you considered GoFundMe?
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