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Old 03-21-2013, 10:43 AM   #1606
craftycoder OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Falcon86 View Post
As an alternative to KickStarter, have you considered GoFundMe?
Nope and at this point I don't want to keep changing it up. I'm OK with the system we have now. A direct appeal on the website is good enough I think.
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Old 04-02-2013, 09:40 AM   #1607
StuInFH
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Sustainability

Hmmm. Was away for a few weeks due to things I need to do to support myself. Logged on, saw the request and "invested" another $20 in DSM and figuered I'd go catch up on the thread after I uploaded a track and got the download started.

Interesting points being made. I don't agree that the situation is analogous to the Tragedy of the Commons, or more accurately, I should say I wish you weren't taking the path that makes it so.

I didn't realize your plan was for DSM to be "free" (your definition or the common one) when I popped for the $20 app (and had to explain to everyone why an app was $20!), but not your fault obvously for my assumption. I have to agree with some comments above (well said NickJensen), but no worries. I've invested quite a bit in hardware (milspec phone), software, mounts, chargers, cabling, etc. (not to mention the learning curve/my time with no user manual!) and now a $40 total cash outlay for the product, but still feel it was all very worthwile. However, it has always been a cost benefit decision for me among many competing products/platforms. I'm into the smartphone platform now for what a Montana almost cost, and that does have me questioning the assumptions I made.

I do believe the smartphone device is the future for nav, I just wish your vision for DSM was conventional in the sense of having a going-concern business plan. Asking for "donations" is too NPRish for me to keep investing in what may turn out to be an orphan, but I'm not criticizing you for your beliefs.

It's been fun, and if this is the end (and judging by the surprisingly little chatter on this thread-it appears more than likely), I'd like to thank you for your efforts and wish you well!
Stu

StuInFH screwed with this post 04-03-2013 at 10:48 AM Reason: corrected ref to earlier poster, RickJensen
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Old 04-02-2013, 12:06 PM   #1608
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I currently have nothing to report. I am busy working on things other than DSM at the present. I am keeping tabs on Google and the possibility of them delaying the shutdown. They have a history of setting a deadline and then pushing it at the last minute. We can hope but I would not be optimistic. My guess now is that the site will go down in May (though not the app) and I will find time in the fall to get into the rewrite. That will be pushed to the top of my priority list if and when we raise the funds though.

I think the NPR strategy is great and for things that are best for all when it is free for all, like radio (and DSM.com) is.
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Old 04-02-2013, 01:22 PM   #1609
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Originally Posted by StuInFH View Post
(and had to explain to everyone why an app was $20!)
Stu, I can tell you why the app is "so expensive". It's $20 because my research told me that that was universally considered very expensive and I didn't want to offer support to people who didn't value the software. Why? Because, if you don't value the software you won't put in the effort, so why should I? I'm not doing this for the dollars, I'm doing it for the riding.
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Old 04-02-2013, 02:43 PM   #1610
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Originally Posted by craftycoder View Post
Stu, I can tell you why the app is "so expensive". It's $20 because my research told me that that was universally considered very expensive and I didn't want to offer support to people who didn't value the software. Why? Because, if you don't value the software you won't put in the effort, so why should I? I'm not doing this for the dollars, I'm doing it for the riding.
Please don't misunderstand me, I certainly believed then and still do that it was a worthwhile investment. What I meant by having to explain why it was $20, is exactly what you said above, and I also explained to others how you didn't want potential users to be turned off by any unfair negative reviews from folks that didn't put an effort into the upfront learning curve (which you were correct to assume there would be if they had only invested $1 in it).

You've probably seen me promoting the app (I had asked about the non-updating OSM basemap), and at least one of my riding buddies (Bluegroove) was moving forward and asking you for advice/specing a phone to use, not coincidentally, he is the most cost conscious among them.

I've said here before I really like the app and I would be willing to support it with a subscription (I considered my latest $20 to be two months worth), but it has to be based on a going concern business plan. Nothing personal, we may just have fundamentally different idealogies at work, I am a free market libertarian, you like the NPR model. I am 54, so when I hear my young niece say "data wants to be free" I think how ultimately unworkable/unsustainable that is without govt support (again, the NPR model). I am afraid the product will only survive if you considered it more akin to a satellite tv service rather than a radio program though.

Operating costs and reserves divided by subscribers equals a good value in the market to consumers or it dies.

If my favorite radio station goes out, I hit a button and listen to something else, if I am starting my retirement travels and my nav "system" goes out, not so easy of an alternative.

But you know all this. And RickJensen said it all better already. We just don't want it to die. It is too cool! My riding buddies are already in the habit of asking, "Stu, are there any tracks around here?"
thanks for your time

StuInFH screwed with this post 04-03-2013 at 10:49 AM Reason: corrected ref to earlier poster; RickJensen
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Old 04-02-2013, 03:14 PM   #1611
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I'm a free market libertarian also (I sent all my donations to Ron Paul last year, seriously). Nothing is more free than the model I am suggesting. All people are free, without coercion of any kind, to participate as much or as little as they like. The radio model as you describe it, is how the internet is in its most natural state. It is also perfectly capable of acting in the satellite model obviously. My concern is that the software works better when more people upload quality tracks. More people would seem to equal no cost to me. Furthermore, because the operating costs are pretty low currently ($1500ish/month) why put a paywall up that cuts out people if I really only need 150 people to kick in $10/month for ongoing money and another 150 people for the war chest. 300 people should not be that hard to do, should it? We shall see after the Google Maps 3 version is online and I make the push for a more sustainable model. Honestly, I'm pretty disheartened that the site may be down for a while but there isn't much I can do about it at the moment. I'm pretty confident that the site will rise like a Phoenix from it's own ashes, the only real question is when that happens.
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Old 04-02-2013, 06:33 PM   #1612
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Yeah, that sucks, Crafty. Google's done this to us a couple of times now. They have changed many details in this wave, some of which take effect now, some of which are associated with the V2 deprecation.

If it helps any, it looks like they've delayed the deprecation until September:

http://googlegeodevelopers.blogspot....ng-api-v2.html

Daniel

Quote:
Originally Posted by craftycoder View Post
I suppose now is as good a time as any spill the beans on this. Google has decided to shutdown the Maps API V2 that the website uses to render and edit maps. This means that the website needs a complete rewrite to stay online past the summer. This affects the Android users as much as the website users because the app has such a tight connection to the website. The donate button I added to the site which sets up a subscription will keep the website online going forward but we also need a pile of cash to rewrite the thing too. I setup a page to try to collect enough money get it done. Help out if you can.


UPDATE 3/19/2013
***I cancelled the fundraiser and refunded everyone. Not enough money was coming in and the cost to refund the money was 10% so every dollar I did raise was just money I was burning. I also tried to get a Kickstarter page up but it was turned down.***


The Google end of life notice.
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Old 04-02-2013, 10:15 PM   #1613
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large case

For all of you looking for a case:
http://www.amazon.com/i-Trek-GN032-W.../dp/B004IQ8AI6

Fits my galaxy S3 just fine.
I bought a right angle micro-usb adapter also so that the cable routes from the side of the phone down to the bottom of this case where the cord comes out.
I then have a micro-usb 12v power adapter connected to that and then connected to my bike's battery.

Works great. You can touch the screen through the plastic.
It will take a little creativity to mount the phone in the case so it is tight against the plastic screen and doesn't bounce around.
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Old 04-03-2013, 05:41 AM   #1614
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Crafty, threw a hundred bucks into the re-write pot over the weekend. I know it's not a lot but I hope it helps.

I have to confess that I am pretty surprised that there has been this little reaction from the users. The app is great... but the app/website combination is truly unbeatable. I've been looking around since you first announced the shut-down and I haven't found anything as versatile as DSM combo. The ability to not only plan and share routes but also to save and share tracks as well as easily modify routes and "grade them" according to difficulty can't be found anywhere else! At least not that I've found.

Face it, there's a bunch of decent mapping/navigation apps out there but I haven't found any that are as intuitive and easy to learn as DSM.Com. The only thing that I can think of is that the app users are simply not aware of just how good the website is, how well the app and website interface and just how powerful that combination is. they're using it just like GMaps.

I laud you for sticking to your belief that the app and website should be free to use but I also believe that a person should be fairly compensated for costs and a job well done.

I'm still rooting for you!
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Old 04-03-2013, 06:09 AM   #1615
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I'm in for a $10/month subscription.. not a lot of extra cash, but I firmly believe in the abilities of this app. I'm really the only one mapping up in NNY, but the interface on the website is great, and does literally everything I need at this time. Hoping inmates come through on this one.... and hoping google delays the deprecation until after riding season!
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Old 04-03-2013, 06:44 AM   #1616
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Thanks guys. I'd really like to get this website rewrite front burnered and with enough support from the users I can afford to do that. If the support doesn't come I enough volume to front burner the development, I still plan to squeeze it in as time allows. I have a new baby on the way which may either complicate the timing or facilitate it. I suppose it depends on the baby's temperament.
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Old 04-03-2013, 06:50 AM   #1617
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Congratulations.. in my experience (I'm a sysadmin/scripter by trade and hobby), new babies facilitate these sorts of projects, but you're correct, their temperament determines it. Also: best brush up on the one-handed typing
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Old 04-03-2013, 07:03 AM   #1618
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Congratulations.. in my experience (I'm a sysadmin/scripter by trade and hobby), new babies facilitate these sorts of projects, but you're correct, their temperament determines it. Also: best brush up on the one-handed typing
The site was born shortly after my son. Not a coincidence. ;)
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Old 04-06-2013, 10:18 AM   #1619
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I don't understand this $20 being talked about as an 'investment'. i drop that in the bathroom at the bar when i bang into 3 walls on the way to the urinal. i'd buy you a drink or 8 if you let me use this app....and i guarantee we'd drink more than $20. the money isn't the issue. the app is incredible...people just need a commitment of which way it's going and it will spread. i have 20ish dualsporters here i ride with that probably don't even know about the app, wouldn't blink twice at $20 and would easily consider a yearly subscription or something.

two questions though:
1) i used this app for a TAT ride this last July. If you'll remember, it was eleventy million degrees all through July. The phone was in a tank bag behind a clear cover and worked great...but heat (phone) was a huge issue. Any suggestions for a solid universal phone holder that holds it in open air? (i'm not splashing through big mud or worried about water/debris....just stable)

2) Is there a software folks are mainly using to record tracks as they ride, and then save into the site/app? It's been awhile since I messed with the app...but was pretty sure the app didn't have that feature. I think i once used a jogging app that just made tracks as you walked. I would assume I could save them (what format?) and how would I move them to dsm?
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Old 04-06-2013, 11:38 AM   #1620
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Agreed. I need to consider getting more serious about this project if I am going to keep investing so much time into it. I'm working on some ideas to bring some stability to the finances and keep the site in the black going forward.


1. My suggestion is using a waterproof phone. The nano coating stuff is really good too, so a Sony waterproof phone or a Samsung with the nano coating seems like a winner to me.


2. The app creates and stores a GPX for all your rides. You just need to copy it to your Pc and upload it to the site in order to save it for future use. I really ought to give you the ability to do that from the phone. I'll get to that one of these days.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jigmoore View Post
I don't understand this $20 being talked about as an 'investment'. i drop that in the bathroom at the bar when i bang into 3 walls on the way to the urinal. i'd buy you a drink or 8 if you let me use this app....and i guarantee we'd drink more than $20. the money isn't the issue. the app is incredible...people just need a commitment of which way it's going and it will spread. i have 20ish dualsporters here i ride with that probably don't even know about the app, wouldn't blink twice at $20 and would easily consider a yearly subscription or something.

two questions though:
1) i used this app for a TAT ride this last July. If you'll remember, it was eleventy million degrees all through July. The phone was in a tank bag behind a clear cover and worked great...but heat (phone) was a huge issue. Any suggestions for a solid universal phone holder that holds it in open air? (i'm not splashing through big mud or worried about water/debris....just stable)

2) Is there a software folks are mainly using to record tracks as they ride, and then save into the site/app? It's been awhile since I messed with the app...but was pretty sure the app didn't have that feature. I think i once used a jogging app that just made tracks as you walked. I would assume I could save them (what format?) and how would I move them to dsm?
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