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Old 05-20-2013, 11:23 AM   #256
kinimod
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fbj913 View Post
What in particular are you speaking of? Ohlins has the integrated rear shock on the 1200GSA thats all computerized...
I've had the Ohlins rear shock on my Tiger XC now for a little while with no issues.
Like I said heard of some issues like blowing shocks on peoples 12GS, on some bikes that were taken on RTW tours, and it was on HUBB that I heard of it.
Did not get or read any specifics just that and that is a reason why I have asked. How many kms do you have on your Ohlins and on what type of roads/terrain?
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Old 01-02-2014, 09:21 AM   #257
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BMW is facing hard competition, on and off tracks. After this new "water model" it's not the unstoppable motorcycle anymore. In fact it's not reliable at all.
For know, I will go with the 800XC.
When - and if - I have money enough I will go with the Tiger Explorer.


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Old 01-03-2014, 04:49 AM   #258
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PauloHM View Post
BMW is facing hard competition, on and off tracks. After this new "water model" it's not the unstoppable motorcycle anymore. In fact it's not reliable at all.
For know, I will go with the 800XC.
When - and if - I have money enough I will go with the Tiger Explorer.


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Why do you say that it isnt reliable anymore, how does water cooling render its reliability?
Also I think that this thread is about 800s and not 1200s.
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Old 01-03-2014, 04:02 PM   #259
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I have ridden both bikes. I prefer the F800 any day of the week. Not as top heavy. It has a better power band. I.E. it pulls strongly at all points on the tach whereas the Triumph's power does not kick in till a high RPM. To those people who state Triumph is better, bullshit, but have a nice day. It costs less but you get what you pay for. Dave
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Old 01-03-2014, 04:10 PM   #260
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I have been on both bikes...now own a '13 BMW F8....the Triumph is a great bike but add the abs, heated grips not much cheaper if at all now. Great on the road. More comfy by far than the F8. Having said that the BMW is much more fun off road, has better conveniences like the info toggle button, easy on/off ABS and lower centre of gravity for sure.

Both are good in their own way, but BMW wins on mpg, DS fun and 3 year warranty up here plus unlimited mileage.
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Old 01-03-2014, 05:31 PM   #261
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Originally Posted by kinimod View Post
Why do you say that it isnt reliable anymore, how does water cooling render its reliability?
Also I think that this thread is about 800s and not 1200s.
Sorry Boss, did not intend to mess with the thread

I´m talking about the brand, not about the model. I´m talking about the huge engineering change performed by BMW with this "half water cooling project". A bad managed project, full of problems, which affects BMW's reliability. That said, I would go with Triumph instead, got it?
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Old 01-04-2014, 09:31 AM   #262
keep it simple!
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Yeah,BMW is facing big competition:

http://bmwmcmag.com/2013/12/november...d-record-year/
(108872units in the first 11 months of 2013)

And I think it's coming from Triumph

http://www.visordown.com/motorcycle-...oss/24167.html
(52089units)

Still waiting if KTM still will be N°1 but...
http://company.ktm.com/fileadmin/cor...HJ_2013_EN.pdf
(55144units in the first 6 months of 2013)


keep it simple! screwed with this post 01-04-2014 at 09:36 AM
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Old 01-04-2014, 10:02 AM   #263
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Originally Posted by keep it simple! View Post

BMW: 108872 units
Triumph : 52089 units
KTM: 55144 units


if you stopped mixing profit with units, you would probably realize Triumph made another great year, but lost money.

BMW is more than three times bigger than Triumph and maybe twice as big as Triumph and KTM together.

One should expect BMW to sell more then the double of those small companies sales together. The numbers brought by you show the 1/2 sized KTM selling more than 1/2 of BMWs and the even smaller Triumph selling almost another half.

BMW is not facing hard competition, Sir?


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Old 01-04-2014, 02:15 PM   #264
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PauloHM said....."I´m talking about the brand, not about the model. I´m talking about the huge engineering change performed by BMW with this "half water cooling project". A bad managed project, full of problems, which affects BMW's reliability. That said, I would go with Triumph instead, got it?"

Do tell. I haven't heard anything bad about the new waterhead engine and since I can see one in my future, please explain.
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Old 01-04-2014, 10:15 PM   #265
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JustBob said"Do tell. I haven't heard anything bad about the new waterhead engine and since I can see one in my future, please explain."


Searching for specific issues to show you now would be time consuming and unfortunately translating for you would take too long. If you don´t speak Portuguese, I suggest you to try google translate, even not being good enough.
Have in mind that BMW has no plant in Brazil and all they sell here is CKD mounted. My intention with this is simply answering the original thread question and my answer is NO I WOULD NOT BUY BMWs having Triumph as na option. If you guys do not agree, fine by me.
Some examples to start with.

1-
http://portalbigtrails.com.br/forum/...ight=problemas
2-
http://www.reclameaqui.com.br/indices/152/bmw/
3-
http://www.reclameaqui.com.br/indice...bmw-autocraft/
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Old 01-05-2014, 02:40 AM   #266
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Guys: blabla said"..." is not how quoting works, we have a button for this
and no the original question wasn't if you would buy a Triumph instead of a Beemer but if you'd still buy the F800GS eventhough the 800XC is out.

The 1200GS LC have no probs with engines but with all the crap electronic all around but that can happen to every bike with electronics. On a forum you hear more about the guys who have problems then those who haven't. Imagine all the threads they'll need to create to say, "everything is fine and I like my bike".

The XC and Xplorer had their own problems if you look at their specific forums. I honestly couldn't answer the question "would you rather buy a BMW or a Triumph". I don't care about brands but about bikes. For now the only Triumph I'd consider are a scrambler and the rocket III but both aren't the kind of riding I'm doing. I test rode the XC and the Xplorer, both gave me a smile after the test ride but I couldn't see myself on neither of them. That said there other brands out there. I'd love to have a KTM or a Guzzi in my garage, or even an 800cc Yamaha S10 if they bring one out with the new engine.

Now we all understood that you hate BMW not even answering the question. now if you're done highjacking this thread, leave it to Reaver and me to do so
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Old 01-05-2014, 02:44 AM   #267
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I would still by the 800 Beamer over the tiger! I even worked for triumph for a few months and spent plenty of time riding the 800xc!

The rational part of me says the tiger is a better bike all round, more power better breaks, better two up but, there is something about the Beamer that just suits me. Perhaps it's because I've had mine for 5 years? If you gave me the money for a new bike, it would be an 800 sitting in the shed, that's for sure!
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Old 01-05-2014, 06:01 AM   #268
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The following article was published in BMW MOA

Here's the pertinent part without the pics. I leave off the R80GS part of the eval. FWIW.

Evolution not revolution
An afternoon spent with three great motorcycles.
Bob Hancock and Doug Peters
Pic of three bikes in a row
BMW has long been known for its engineering prowess, mixing metallurgy with design, using technology to make the transition from analog to digital, thereby making clean power, with longevity and efficiency. The F800GS is in a long line of current designs that match all the above. With the rather simple suspension of my 2009 bike, a thrust to weight ratio of 5.6 lbs per horsepower as measured at the crank and my home scales, ABS, heated grips, and an ECU managed fuel injection/ignition system my bike was the hero enabling me to ride through some 2000 miles of Colorado’s most scenic rocky roads this past summer. This bike kept me upright over soft dry sand and the rocks of Hagerman Pass, as reported in my blog on the Pelican Forum here: http://forums.pelicanparts.com/bmw-r1100s-r1200s-tech-forum/682353-colorado-2012-trip.html

The bike has become to me, the standard for a moderate sized dual sport motorcycle that is at home on the highway at 75mph and in the outback, loaded with three weeks worth of luggage. It ran absolutely flawlessly as we would expect any modern day bike, and rests on the reputation and technology of earlier motorcycles.

So when I had an opportunity to ride the 1984 R80GS of north Georgia friend Gentleman Jim Russell, the obvious word that came to mind was “comparo”. To make matters even more interesting, Jim also has a 2012 Triumph Tiger 800XC. So I had access to three 800 cc motorcycles of similar mission, using three different engine designs, spanning roughly 25 years and two manufacturers.

Pic of Jim and the three bikes

As in earlier comparison rides I’ve made, I asked long time friend and expert rider Doug Peters to come along and lend his experience and skills to this fun project.

Of course this is not your average journalistic effort, where-in we take someone else’s bikes and flog them to dunnage, mercilessly abusing and evaluating to win the most favored status factories are after. No, these are privately owned bikes, paid for by myself and Gentleman Jim, tires, insurance, gas and repairs included. So primary guidance was no flogging and no dropping. We were after riding impressions, and all that subjective mushy stuff upon which opinions are based. Let the professional journo’s and the manufacturers provide the hard data; we wanted esoteric! The feeling one gets as he approaches the bike, the rattle of the valve train (F800GS), the cooling tink of the exhaust (Triumph 800XC). The indefinable, defined. The compulsion one has to look back walking away. The spiritual patina that causes a rational man to say, “I love that bike.”

Roads that Doug and I used were pavement and mild Forest Service gravel in the local area (Mulky Gap through Cooper’s Creek to be specific.) If the reader wishes to get a full evaluation story, there are many out there, both in the MOA, Motorcycle Consumer News, and the internet. So we won’t spend a lot of effort documenting what has already been said, just our personal comments on these three bikes and what we considered pertinent.

Let the fun begin.

Pic of you at the ranger station on the F8

13 Oct 2012, the mountains of north Georgia, 66F and a light breeze, Fall having fallen, a beautiful day. We set out from Jim’s house on the two new bikes to ride a 30 mile circuit half of which was north Georgia twisty pavement and half Forest Service gravel. We completed the circuit, swapped bikes and did it again. We put them away and got the R80GS out and rode two out-and-backs, half pavement, half gravel.

Triumph 800XC vs BMW F800GS. The XC is a bit stiffer sprung, with the front needing damping adjustment for both on and off road. But neither of these bikes have any adjustment, neither spring load nor damping, for the front so you live with whatcha got. The XC was composed and smooth as long as the road was composed and smooth. Lean it in bumps and it complains just a bit. Not enough to keep us from running the ton a time or two, the three cylinder motor pulling well. The F8 is more softly sprung but handles quite well although the soft front suspension causes it to wiggle it’s nose at you above 80 mph or so but this can be negated by leaning forward. And it runs the ton with a bit more effort, the motor being smooth for a twin but not the butter smooth turbine of the XC. Both bikes pull well in most any gear, the Tiger seeming to pull better because of its gearing. The top two gears are too close for our tastes, 6th gear being too low for easy highway cruising, yielding over 5000 rpm at 70mph. We even discussed increasing the countershaft sprocket by one tooth but that wouldn’t change the gear mix and would make first too tall. The smoothness of the triple saves the ride though, as it’s never buzzy, always composed. So ignore the tach and enjoy the ride.
Throttle control of the F800GS has always been a bit snatchy to me, making it difficult to smoothly control the throttle especially in low gear dirt climbing situations. This causes me to run a higher gear than I would like so that power isn’t so abrupt, but the vertical twin “tractors” well so dirt traction was smooth and strong. The Triumph is less plagued with Electronic Wonder Fuel Injection Snatch (EWFIS) however, enabling me to use whatever gear I preferred without getting too much at the wrong time. Very linear, very nice.

Ergos. I must be accustomed to the F8GS as it sits just right for me. The XC sits a bit low in the saddle but Jim has the seat in the lowered position so the pegs seemed high bending my knees more than I like, giving me a low sitting chopper feel. This can be fixed by raising the seat, which you can do, unlike the BMW which is fixed, but Jim wasn’t there and I didn’t want to fiddle with his bike too much. Doug didn’t like the position the bars put his arms/hands in or how the tank met his knees, much preferring the F8. I didn’t much notice the difference. Both bikes are easy to ride standing although I prefer the BMW as I can stand a bit straighter. The main handling impression I got with the XC was that it wasn’t as easy to transition from curve to curve as the BMW. Could be front geometry or bars but it took a fair amount of cross-control to get it to reverse directions when leaned.
Both bikes have good instrument displays, so it just depends on what you are used to seeing. Either will become intuitive in short order.
The ABS in the dirt came on a bit quicker with the XC than the F8. Most experienced off-roaders (Doug) turn it off which is easy to do on the BMW, but I leave it on, so I prefer the F8 parameters for ABS engagement. I like to get just a little meat into the lever before things really start happening, so I preferred the BMW front brake. The fact that the Triumph front lever was firmer and engaged sooner and takes more button pushing to turn the ABS off, made the BMW brakes better for the dirt. The rear is about the same on both bikes and is very user friendly for both.
The reader must realize of course that familiarity breeds prejudice so take these comments for what they’re worth.

In Summary.
Bob.
In my humble opinion, the Triumph wins the motor/ECU wars handily although the BMW has the ability to “tractor” in the dirt and therefore seems better able to hook up. So on the street, I prefer the Triumph motor-wise, and it’s a tie off-road for mixed reasons (hook up vs throttle control).
The GS is preferred in the frame/suspension/handling department. Although it may appear too softly sprung it handles very well on the pavement and you will really appreciate it in the dirt. The brakes are a wash on the road, with a BMW advantage in the dirt. Riding position, pegs/bar/seat interface, the GS wins with a slim margin. I could be happy with either bike but won’t be trading the BMW anytime soon.

Doug.
Both the 800s are very nice bikes. The F800 always seems to draw my attention more as far as looks go, and the luggage system is great. It has a lean mission-oriented aura and you don’t doubt it could run the highway then do some real off-road running. The Triumph appears a bit more stylish, but the tank looks a little less dirt worthy. The British bike can run paved back roads at speed pretty well, but lacks something when asked to tackle limited off-road situations. The BMW is more comfortable, with better brakes and feel, better-feeling bars, and a smoother-sided tank. The BMW twin hooks the power up to the dirt nicely, and the Triumph likes to break loose and spin (could be part tire-related). Both bikes have a too-tall first gear for the dirt, but the Triumph also has a 6th gear that is too low. The Triumph has a great, really smooth-running engine but it’s too quiet for my tastes. To me, Triumph has “thrown together” a bike that proves they are onto something, but they just don’t really have it all refined. I believe the BMW has it together better overall, though in the future, I would like to see it with a lower first gear, possibly even a higher sixth gear, and an engine with 10 – 12 more hp. It wins my vote for overall dual-master in this comparison.
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Old 01-05-2014, 06:16 AM   #269
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And OBTW....

a local friend bought the Xplorer and kept if for less than a year. Something about the ECU management which causes the bike to stumble and sometimes stall when blip-downshifting. This has potential safety considerations and Triumph knows that it's an issue but hasn't dealt with it yet. What did he replace it with? 2013 R1200GS LC. We'll see how that goes. :)
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Old 01-05-2014, 06:20 AM   #270
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I think the BMW and the Tiger XC are both great bikes, but I would purchase the BMW F over and over again for a different reason than most of you. My Triumph dealer is 20 miles away but has a CRAP service department. My BMW dealer is 90 miles away but has a excellent service department. I do all my own basic maintenance/service and bolt on type accessories, but for anything beyond that I trust my BMW dealer.

This is of course just how it is in my particular location. Others could have the exact opposite situation when it comes to dealer/service/relationship trust.

As far as the bike itself, I'm sure I would be happy with a XC as well but my wife has a F800ST so just as well stay in the BMW family and both bikes have been trouble free. Triumph certainly has nothing to compete with the F800ST or new F800GT.

Oh, and yes I have owned one Triumph, a Tiger 1050 and it was 100% trouble free as well but I only kept it for 21,000 miles.


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