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Old 12-23-2011, 09:54 AM   #151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRWooden View Post
Sorry to not be clear!
IMHO a non-shunt type R/R (that did not run the stator flat out all the time) would reduce heating in the stator and thus reduce (eliminate?) stator failures.

I was mostly trying to just respond to VTBob with regards to why the OEM design is failing prematurely ....

If I had the technical know how, that's where I'd start.. Someone posted a link to an RR sold on Amazon.com An enterprising inmate could figure out a a plug and play kit to replace the stock RR and see if that runs the stator cooler.
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Old 12-23-2011, 03:12 PM   #152
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GB View Post
If I had the technical know how, that's where I'd start.. Someone posted a link to an RR sold on Amazon.com An enterprising inmate could figure out a a plug and play kit to replace the stock RR and see if that runs the stator cooler.
I have purchased a Compufire regulator. When I receive it, along with a new stator (No. 4), I will install it and hopefully I will forget this nightmare. Meanwhile I will have the No.3 stator rewound and carry it as a spare on all long trips!
For general information, I have 45.000 km (less than 30.000 miles !!) on a 2009 model
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Old 12-24-2011, 07:52 AM   #153
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C5!:

Keep us posted! .......

Two things I have read about the "series" style regulators
1) They are less efficient at low speed than the shunt type
and
2) they could create more electrical noise in the system

Let me be clear here
I'm not saying this is certain, I really don't know ... it's just what I've read here and there....
I'd like to have more time to study this issue, it seems to crop up on other brands/models from time to time,
so it's not just "us"
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Old 12-24-2011, 09:46 AM   #154
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new data

I dismantled the No.3 stator this morning. It appears that the "pole" which started to heat-up is the one at 180 degrees, the one right at the bottom. I don't know if it means anything, or if it gives credit to cowboy's assumption that there is too much heat coming from the exhaust, this is indeed the point closest to the exhaust.
Stay tuned I will post pictures when I download them from the phone.
In terms of data.
the battery seems to have suffered from this 2000 km ride on battery...
ignition off, 12.41 V
ignition on, headlight on, not running, 11.95 V
bike started, idle, 11.98 V

Now the stator (No. 3)
resistance between all 3 phases, almost zero
resistance between ground and each phase, open circuit.

Voltage output
between Ground and
phase 1: 1.06
phase 2: 0.99
phase 3: 0.6

between phases, at idle
1-2: 2.10
2-3: 1.98
1-3: 1.6
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Old 12-24-2011, 10:00 AM   #155
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here is the stator still in its original location...
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Old 12-24-2011, 10:02 AM   #156
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and about the cooling

this is the "oil cooling" !!! 3 drops of oil at the bottom... is that an oil bath?
ok th ebike is on its sidestand, if it would be vertical, would there be lot more oil?
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Old 12-24-2011, 10:05 AM   #157
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regulator connector

somebody can give me a tip on how to open this connector?
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Old 12-24-2011, 11:43 AM   #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C5! View Post
this is the "oil cooling" !!! 3 drops of oil at the bottom... is that an oil bath?
ok th ebike is on its sidestand, if it would be vertical, would there be lot more oil?
C5!:

Neither the BMW nor the Haynes manual offer hints on releasing that connector...

Question on the flywheel ... there seem to be two counterbored holes that are unused?
Any idea why they are there?

I don't think there is an oil bath ... only the wish that there was one........
Some other engines use them, but ours alas does not as best I can tell ....
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Old 12-24-2011, 12:47 PM   #159
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Merry Christmas all!

The 2 holes are where the official BMW puller pushes. The rotor is a taper fit.

Why oh why not a nozzle BMW. The crank is right behind that, hollow, and pressurized with oil. That said I don't fancy modding it. The big end bearings need oil too and I don't know how much if any surplus there is.

There is a tiny tab on the connector, look where you wouldn't expect it to be and you will find it.

No question from the picture, the stator is getting hotter towards the front of the motor.

One issue I have with a series regulator is it wouldn't have helped me in the winter at all. They are a little less efficient at all RPM's cause there is more resistance for the current to pass through. A shunt type of regulator is pretty close to 100% efficient at full load. I used every amp the 400 watt alternator could produce for heated gear and lighting, so it wouldn't reduce load on the magnet wire at all for me, not on cold trips at least.

I was already using high tech and expensive LED lighting and efficient heated gear and that was just one up. Two up I had to only heat my chest so G/F could heat hers as well.
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Old 12-24-2011, 01:53 PM   #160
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Thanks Joel!

Merry Christmas to you as well buddy!

I'm looking around at exhaust pipe shields ....
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Old 12-26-2011, 08:31 AM   #161
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Still more data

Below the same picture from above, the stator viewed from the LHS, that is from inside out.
In the second picture the stator seen from the outside, that is the side that is towards the outside of the bike.

Strange to see that on that side, the only charred part are the 3 poles where they connect to the outside wiring.
this wiring is the only part of the stator in fact that is touching the external cover. !!
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Old 12-26-2011, 08:32 AM   #162
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here is the 2nd picture, the side facing the cover.
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Old 12-26-2011, 08:59 AM   #163
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Shorting issue with alternator

That looks like the insulation is breaking down with the close contact with the cover and causing a partial short to the case?
Joel what do you think of this localized burning up of the insulation?
Or since it is at the bottom is the hot oil charring the insulation?
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Old 12-26-2011, 05:30 PM   #164
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How are the ends of the coiled copper wire connected to the soft wires coming outside? If it does run at full capacity all the time any imperfection in there would cause localized resistance (over)heating... just a thought.
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Old 12-27-2011, 01:26 AM   #165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vtbob View Post
It is clear that stator windings are being chared and failing. Fact one. The question is why and what the root cause is.

Failures seem to come at 30,000 miles or more. Certainly not evenly distributed over time....ie the same rate of failures on new bikes and on the higher milage ones. Is this an important clue? Could this age related condition be fact two?

A first though logically it that it is too hot. Why?
Has the engine temp in the stator housing gone up over time? If so what would cause that?
A lot of talk about exhaust pipe temp contributing. Are exhaust temps hotter on older bikes. Are the exhaust headers closer or touching the case? Not enough info on this but the ad hoc info seems there is no change here.
Is there any real info to support the idea the stator housing gets hotter with the age of the bike? No?
So if the stator housing is not hotter with age, what would cause the stator it self to get hotter with age?
Is there more current flowing in "old" stators than new? If so what would cause this excess current?
Are the magnets on the rotor getting stronger with age? Are they rotating closer to the stator...higher flux density so more current is made? An area to think more about.
Could the regulator malfunction increase the currents in the stator? Most say no because of the design. Is that really true in all failure mods?
Does the copper winding in the stator age? Would this aging cause over heating? No?
Does the insulation on the stator winding age? Would this aging cause shorted windings and over heating? Would these shorts cause gradual output voltage reductions...that could be measured as a precursor symptom?
Why would the stator insulation age / fail? Poor material used? Some type of contaminations? Vibration cause cracking? All good things to think about and get more info.
Has anyone really analyzed a failed stator?
I really like your approach to the problem, where most questions are the same I asked myself.

Checked a German forum and they only had two similar incidents. Not many considering the high number of F8's sold there.
What me concerns most is the fact that basically everything works fine and the problem occurs only after a certain mileage. Well, some exceptions seem to prove the rule.
So if heat is the problem why doesn't it kill the alternator immediately? Cowboys approach with the heat resistant tape sounds good but I doubt that the exhaust tubes really roast the alternator. I checked with my F8 and the tubes are in my opinion not a problem, at least not when riding, but the may be when going really slow and there's no air flow.
Like cowboy I can build up a plane (mechanically) but I am clueless about the electric stuff so I can't say anything to the different types of rectifiers and related stuff.

BMW sure knows whats going on and it pisses me no end that they don't state the reason. Knowing the reason would help to find a way to solve the problem....
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