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Old 04-07-2012, 07:22 AM   #271
JRWooden
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoelWisman View Post
....BMW is probably the only manufacture that got this part wrong in modern times
I'm starting to get a tad depressed...

My warranty has expired.
* I'm on my second gas tank and it is cracking (likely I'll get this replaced under the 2-year parts warranty later on),
* even though I've run nothing but regular H7 55W bulbs, my headlight reflector will be shot soon - the metalization is
crap and the reflector not being available separately means $450 out of pocket unless I can get some goodwill
somehow...
* and we've got this regulator issue....



Ok ok ... no more crying in my beer for now...

Joel: Seriously, thanks for your help - not having much regulator design knowledge: is the FH012AA still a shunt type design, or is injecting noise on the CAN-BUS a worry, or does FET design sidestep the whole shunt/series problem?

It sure would be nice to have thermocouple runs to compare the "standard" setup to the "SC" to the MOSFET
I'll chip in a 5th of libation to anyone that could take on that job, I'll bet a few other guys that are subscribed to this thread would do likewise if someone could assemble all the stuff in one place ...

Hey I got another idea:
we can re-route the coolant lines that go down to the oil cooler to run past the stator
< he says ... only half in jest >
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Old 04-07-2012, 07:30 AM   #272
JRWooden
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Originally Posted by Gangplank View Post
So am I reading this correctly that stators are failing upwards of 50,000 miles?

Also does running an after market cooler regulator/rectifier help cool the stator? If so that seems like a fairly easy solution.

And what farkels and/or what battety are people running on the bikes that fail? Surely they aren't running the stock batter with that kind of mileage.
GP:
I'm no expert but I'll take a stab:

Yeah... the regulator design is such that regardless of the actual "demand" for power from the bike, the stator runs at full load all of the time. The stator is inside the flywheel and has no oil splash or other cooling and as a combinded result it gets too hot - up to or exceeding the temperature rating of the stator wiring and fails ... it seems to happen in the 40K - 60k miles area....

The OEM regulator is a "shunt" design and runs the stator flat-out. Some regulator designs "series" style do NOT run the stator flat-out, and thus it would not get as hot, there is concern that the series style might inject electrical noise into the system and screw up the CAN-bus... I don't think we know how valid this concern might be....

I don't think the battery is specifically part of this issue, but there is a related issue in that the regulator that is installed on most bikes the - SH541-12 is set to a lower voltage (13.x volts) than some of the alternative chemistry batteries desire - e.g. the Shorai. A different model regulator seems to be showing up in the parts channel and on newer bikes - SH541-SC which regulates at a higher voltage. This helps with the stator cooking problem but we don't know how MUCH it helps... it is also helpful to folks that want to run an alternative chemistry battery ...

ok time for more coffee...
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Old 04-07-2012, 08:57 AM   #273
vtbob
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There is not much we can do about the low cost/low weight shut electrical system. Putting a field regulated alternator is a major mod...both to the stator/rotor (not sure the on alternator electronics/rectifiers would survive in current location) and of course a totally different regulator.

Re higher charge voltage to alternate technology batteries. This too is likely not as simple as it sounds...especially for Lithium based batteries. there are several Lithium chemistries...managing the charging voltage is not consistent across lithium aternatives....and if not improperly managed/charged, lithium batteries can self destruct. For this reason, I do not think you will see either auto or motorcycle manufactures offering "lithium" compatible charging systems....mainly because the lithium technology has not settled down to a common charging, discharging, maintenance set of parameters.

The lithium battery manufacture put "stuff" in their batteries to attempt to manage this....It does not seem they have really gotten a reliable handle on that part either. i.e. the bleeding edge of technology
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Old 04-07-2012, 09:33 AM   #274
JRWooden
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Originally Posted by vtbob View Post
...Re higher charge voltage to alternate technology batteries.
I agree, my point here was that even by AGM battery standards, the twin's R/R puts out substandard voltage.
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Old 04-07-2012, 09:37 AM   #275
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I searched .... and failed.

Can someone point me to the post ... I think by Joel ... that describes how to test or monitor a stator for pending failure?
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Old 04-07-2012, 10:04 AM   #276
JRWooden
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Originally Posted by 'Flagger View Post
I searched .... and failed.

Can someone point me to the post ... I think by Joel ... that describes how to test or monitor a stator for pending failure?
Simple tests would be:

Disconnect 3-wire plug from Regulator to stator.

Test resistance from pin 1-2, 2-3, 3-1 (this measures the resistance of the 3 phases of the stator)
All three readings should be low and approximately equal.
If any of these three readings are high or infinite you have burned out (open) windings

Test from any of the leads to chassis ground the reading should be very high or infinite (10M-ohms or better)
If the reading is low your stator has shorted to ground ...

Joel had another test ... that actually did a quick test of each phase's output....
I *THINK* he took a piece of small gauge wire (24g ?) and shorted each of the phases (1-2, 2-3, 3-1) with the bike running... A good stator winding will "smoke" the wire
Do this one at your own risk...

Fail any of these tests and I think you need a new stator, but they may not warn of impending failure....
Monitoring these values over time and checking resistance to ground with a "megger" might give advance warning...
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Old 04-07-2012, 10:11 AM   #277
Cesar Serpa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Flagger View Post
I searched .... and failed.

Can someone point me to the post ... I think by Joel ... that describes how to test or monitor a stator for pending failure?
Read this:
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=685465
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Old 04-07-2012, 10:54 AM   #278
'Flagger
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Originally Posted by Cesar Serpa View Post
d'oh.

Should have been able to find that one ..... thanx.
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Old 04-07-2012, 10:55 AM   #279
'Flagger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRWooden View Post
Simple tests would be:

Disconnect 3-wire plug from Regulator to stator.

Test resistance from pin 1-2, 2-3, 3-1 (this measures the resistance of the 3 phases of the stator)
All three readings should be low and approximately equal.
If any of these three readings are high or infinite you have burned out (open) windings

Test from any of the leads to chassis ground the reading should be very high or infinite (10M-ohms or better)
If the reading is low your stator has shorted to ground ...

Joel had another test ... that actually did a quick test of each phase's output....
I *THINK* he took a piece of small gauge wire (24g ?) and shorted each of the phases (1-2, 2-3, 3-1) with the bike running... A good stator winding will "smoke" the wire
Do this one at your own risk...

Fail any of these tests and I think you need a new stator, but they may not warn of impending failure....
Monitoring these values over time and checking resistance to ground with a "megger" might give advance warning...
Tests 1 and 2 will done before dinner. Test 3 ... maybe not.

Thanx!
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Old 04-07-2012, 01:34 PM   #280
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Originally Posted by Gangplank View Post
So am I reading this correctly that stators are failing upwards of 50,000 miles?

Also does running an after market cooler regulator/rectifier help cool the stator? If so that seems like a fairly easy solution.

And what farkels and/or what battety are people running on the bikes that fail? Surely they aren't running the stock batter with that kind of mileage.
I am told by a person that would know that the failure rate of the stators exceeds 50% by 50,000 miles. Many fail earlier and many fail later.

This is on stock bikes but extra load doesn't matter unless your load actually exceeds stator output and drives the voltage down, which is not going to be common as under those conditions your battery would also run dead as you rode.

All motorcycles that have permanent magnet internal alternators use shunt style regulators that simply ground out the excess capacity of the stator. In effect, they use up any excess capacity the charging system has to keep voltage at their set point.

Most F8s use a regulator that shunts voltage at a lower voltage then is ideal for AGM or LiFePO4 battery charging. This is not a defect as the bike continues to work with the usual oe regulator and none are going to get changed under warranty unless they actually break.

To an unknown degree, installing a regulator that shunts at a higher voltage will in addition to making AGM and some LiFePO4 batteries last longer, will allow the stator to run at least slightly cooler because the stator will produce slightly less current at the higher voltages of 14.2 - 14.5 volts, then it does at 13.84 which is what most F8 stock regulators are set for.

The stator is also not defective unless it fails during warranty, it just sucks from a longevity / reliability standpoint because the totality of design runs it at the raggedy edge of heat it can tolerate and as such it ages quickly and tends to fail early which is not ideal but not THAT uncommon on motorcycles.

A shunt style regulator is the opposite of a series style regulator. I am not aware of a single bike that has ever come oe with a series regulator and there are reasons for that.

1: series style regulators cost more

2: series regulators are bigger and weigh more

3: series regulators of the past have been electrically noisy and caused interference with other systems such as fuel injection and ABS computers.

4: series regulators cause high voltages in the stator which along with something called "ring" can damage stator insulation of stators and age them as fast or faster then the heat load from shunt style regulators.


The benefit of series regulators are:

1: unless you are using 100% of stator capacity, the stator will run cooler.

2: the bike will get better fuel economy because the stator isn't sucking as much horse power from the engine when you aren't using the full output from the stator


Recently, series regulators came onto the market with advertisements that they had technologically solved all of the previous negatives.

I don't know if this is true, but could tell likedysplit if someone bought one and rolled by my place with it installed. It could be advertising BS or it could be the truth in which case series regulators are the way to go.

The link I provided ( http://www.ebay.com/itm/UNIVERSAL-MO...#ht_1428wt_781 )

Is for a quality mosfet shunt style regulator with a nice kit. The guy selling it is NOT me and I don't know him from Adam, but he is also in Missouri, which I like, and is in Joplin which got mowed down by a tornado last year so could probably use the business.

It is a 6 wire regulator. 3 for stator, 2 for connection to the stock B+ and B- wires, and an extra wire called remote sense. You run one additional wire from the regulators remote sense direct to the positive battery terminal. this wire carries no load so is not confused by voltage drop or ring into lowering the high rpm voltage like the F8 oe regulator does.
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Old 04-07-2012, 01:41 PM   #281
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+1 Joel thx. I'm really gonna get my third stator & regulator :(((

and honestly... it really sucks. I dont wanna get stuck somewhere far abroad.
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Old 04-07-2012, 02:28 PM   #282
JoelWisman
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JR The regulator I linked to is shunt style, not noisy, and oe on many honda products that never have regulator issues.

Your idea on coolant is actually very good and feasible. Intercept the oil cooler coolant line, one wrap around the stator cover, thermal compound between stator and cover. It could probably be made good for a 30c drop in stator temperature which would make them last forever.

It would the some doing to make it aesthetically pleasing, but I don't see why it couldn't be done.

Also, I have painted crome plastic paint back onto F8 reflectors, your just talking a patch of reflective paint missing mostly right above the bulb, right? That can be fixed with a nail polish sized brush with a 90 degree bend and a little time.


vtbob. I am the most skeptical M.F. you are likely to ever meet when it comes to "new technology". I won't even buy Amsoil purely on the basis that their advertisements annoy me, never bought slick50 when it was the rage.

Moving to Missouri is the best thing I have ever done as we are the "show me" state, which fits me perfectly.

The Shorai LiFePO4 batteries I tested were complete shit. Underperformed compared to 75$ Deka lead/acid batteries. Would not stay in balance for charging systems on the low side like the F8 has. had joke CCA ratings that when tested would make the battery smoke and fail. were not watertight so would take on water and internally corrode when the bike was dumped on a water crossing. had fiddely terminals that a surgeon would have trouble using and were used undersized screws into posts that bend before you get enough torque on the screws to assure your connections don't rattle free. And general build quality you would expect from something made in China which is exactly where Shorai batteries are assembled.


BUT...... This is not true of the whole industry that is using LiFePO4 chemistry for power sports SLI batteries. LiFePo4 is more tolerant to over voltage then lead/acid. That is to say that the charging voltage that will finally send a LiFePO4 cylindric into thermal runaway is WELL above the voltage that will cause a lead/acid battery to explode.

I know this from tests, specifically 21 volts at up to 30 amps for 1 hour and all the good LiFePO4 did was get warm. The YTX14 (oe BMW battery) popped the case and spewed acid everywhere during this same test because contrary to popular belief, AGM's are wet batteries. It also exceeded terminal voltage of a Deka ETX14 and Odyssey pc 535 in both 30 second 200 amp load tests and 16 repetitions of cranking a 1000cc Aprilia Caponord V-twin 10 seconds every minute and 50 seconds with the key left on pulling 18 amps between each cranking cycle.

Further it exceeded both the Deka and Odyssey in amp hour testing where I left the key of the Capo on and cranked the engine up once every 5 minutes till each battery ran dead.

From my testing I am convinced LiFePO4 is cutting edge, not bleeding edge, enough so that my super skeptical ass just removed my Deka AGM from my main rider and replaced it with one of the same LiFePO4 batteries I abused during testing.

I would put the 4 month old Deka up for bid, but despite how much I love Deka batteries, I can tell you that it is going to fail shortly from the abuse I put it through that the LiFePO4 came through undamaged.

JRWooden. I came up with my "24 gauge" stator test in the Mojave desert when no one had a multimeter and 200 miles from civilization. The meter is safer but I am proud of my McGuiver skills!

As to testing stators. the "1-2, 1-3, 2-3, any - ground. resistance test and 1-2, 1-3, 2-3 open circuit voltage tests" will show you if a stator has partially or completely failed, but will give zero data on one that has intermittently failed or is going to fail.

For predictive testing you need someone with a megger who knows how to use it AND has taken readings on a good F8 stator so knows what to expect.

Other then with a megger, a stator that is an hour from failure looks the same as a stator that is brand new, unfortunately.

My vaporizing copper test at least tests the stator under load and will occasionally ferret out intermittently failing stators, but yeah, someone here sent me a picture of the nice scar they got from using my test while holding the wire with bare fingers Use thick plasma proof gloves or hold the wire with pliers if your going to use the Joel stator test :)
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Old 04-07-2012, 02:32 PM   #283
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Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
+1 Joel thx. I'm really gonna get my third stator & regulator :(((

and honestly... it really sucks. I dont wanna get stuck somewhere far abroad.
You are welcome, and it does suck.

Someone really should try one of these series regulators and you would be a perfect candidate cause you appear to be racking up the miles.

If I still owned an F8 I would contribute a few bucks for someone to try one.
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Old 04-07-2012, 02:35 PM   #284
Hicks
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoelWisman View Post
Also, I have painted crome plastic paint back onto F8 reflectors, your just talking a patch of reflective paint missing mostly right above the bulb, right? That can be fixed with a nail polish sized brush with a 90 degree bend and a little time.
please can you suggest me which paint brand to use?

I've almost ordered whole new headlight.... the present being in a disastrous blackened condition :(
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Old 04-07-2012, 02:40 PM   #285
Hicks
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoelWisman View Post
You are welcome, and it does suck.

Someone really should try one of these series regulators and you would be a perfect candidate cause you appear to be racking up the miles.

If I still owned an F8 I would contribute a few bucks for someone to try one.
I have some experience with regulators from RC planes and physics/electricity.. but its quite a long ago.

anyway... could it damage the bike electronics in a worst case?

I can maybe also cooperate with local BMW service to help me with that.
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