Another alternator hits the dust and not under warranty

[JoelWisman]

I used whatever kind of paint was nearest or easiest to find at the store. I suppose bar b q or exhaust paint might hold up longer and perhaps plastic paint would stick better, never had a problem with any paint I used holding up but perhaps I just got lucky.

As to the series voltage regulator damaging electronics on the bike, doubtful. The battery is a very effective absorber of spikes, and in any case, the new series regulators on the market "claim" to not make spikes.

The concern is noise causing temporary glitches, and once again the new series regulators on the market "claim" to not be electrically noisy.

If the regulator fails and jacks the voltage up AND you don't notice, yes, bad things will happen but this is true of shunt style regulators as well which almost always go high voltage when they fail while the typical failure mode of series regulators is to go low voltage.

The risk isn't zero, but I judge it to be very low.

P.S. you need to use a patch saturated with rubbing alcohol to get the carbon and oil off where you are going to paint. only use a little and only where the oe paint is gone.

[Hicks]

Originally Posted by JoelWisman

I used whatever kind of paint was nearest or easiest to find at the store. I suppose bar b q or exhaust paint might hold up longer and perhaps plastic paint would stick better, never had a problem with any paint I used holding up but perhaps I just got lucky.

As to the series voltage regulator damaging electronics on the bike, doubtful. The battery is a very effective absorber of spikes, and in any case, the new series regulators on the market "claim" to not make spikes.

The concern is noise causing temporary glitches, and once again the new series regulators on the market "claim" to not be electrically noisy.

If the regulator fails and jacks the voltage up AND you don't notice, yes, bad things will happen but this is true of shunt style regulators as well which almost always go high voltage when they fail while the typical failure mode of series regulators is to go low voltage.

The risk isn't zero, but I judge it to be very low.

P.S. you need to use a patch saturated with rubbing alcohol to get the carbon and oil off where you are going to paint. only use a little and only where the oe paint is gone.

okay.. thx. I have about 25% of the reflective surface damaged. Some by the bulb, rest by coworker who tried to clean-up the clouded lens ;)

ad. regulator -- OK. For sure... I suppose I'll need the stator as well.

[JoelWisman]

Originally Posted by Hicks

okay.. thx. I have about 25% of the reflective surface damaged. Some by the bulb, rest by coworker who tried to clean-up the clouded lens ;)

ad. regulator -- OK. For sure... I suppose I'll need the stator as well.

If your stator is broken you will need a new one, but if its not yet, the series regulator works with stock stators.

I miss the days of metal cromed reflectors!

[JRWooden]

Originally Posted by JoelWisman

.... My vaporizing copper test at least tests the stator under load and will occasionally ferret out intermittently failing stators, but yeah, someone here sent me a picture of the nice scar they got from using my test while holding the wire with bare fingers Use thick plasma proof gloves or hold the wire with pliers if your going to use the Joel stator test :)

I love it!
Once my son when he was about 5 years old was standing by while I was doing some electrical testing...
He observed that
" ... once the smoke comes out ... they hardly ever work again .... too bad you can't put the smoke back in...???"


If you are up for it, and if there is someone close by to you has a "donor bike" ...
I'll buy the regulator from the guy on eBay and have it drop-shipped to you ...
You can just send it on to me whenever the test cycle is complete!

Thanks for the tip on the reflector ...
yeah it's just right above the bulb ... more so on the high beam, but also on the low beam....
I'm going to run the situation up the "good-will" flag pole and see if anyone salutes.
If not ... chrome spray paint for plastic ... here I come ...

Ya know ... if BMW is going to make crappy parts ... the LEAST they could do is let you just buy the part that is crap, without a lot of extras (stator with no flywheel) ... (reflector without the rest of the headlight assby) ...

Ok ok ... rant over .... where's my beer?
I'm starting to check the toilet seat when I drink ... just to get in practice for the day I finally get to meet you...

Seriously, I'll spring for the R/R if we can get a volunteer donor bike in MO.
I e-mailed the guy that is selling them and asked about using them on BMW twins with CANBUS. As close as he would come to saying "it's all good" was that he has several satisfied customers riding F800GS twins that are using it successfully.

[JoelWisman]

Originally Posted by JRWooden

I love it!
Once my son when he was about 5 years old was standing by while I was doing some electrical testing...
He observed that
" ... once the smoke comes out ... they hardly ever work again .... too bad you can't put the smoke back in...???"


If you are up for it, and if there is someone close by to you has a "donor bike" ...
I'll buy the regulator from the guy on eBay and have it drop-shipped to you ...
You can just send it on to me whenever the test cycle is complete!

Thanks for the tip on the reflector ...
yeah it's just right above the bulb ... more so on the high beam, but also on the low beam....
I'm going to run the situation up the "good-will" flag pole and see if anyone salutes.
If not ... chrome spray paint for plastic ... here I come ...

Ya know ... if BMW is going to make crappy parts ... the LEAST they could do is let you just buy the part that is crap, without a lot of extras (stator with no flywheel) ... (reflector without the rest of the headlight assby) ...

Ok ok ... rant over .... where's my beer?
I'm starting to check the toilet seat when I drink ... just to get in practice for the day I finally get to meet you...

Seriously, I'll spring for the R/R if we can get a volunteer donor bike in MO.
I e-mailed the guy that is selling them and asked about using them on BMW twins with CANBUS. As close as he would come to saying "it's all good" was that he has several satisfied customers riding F800GS twins that are using it successfully.

I'm game, and yes, plenty of test F8's local being ridden by people that seem to like me. Not many would want their stock wiring hacked up, but I can cut the end off the SC regulator so its plug and play for the test. That means if my SC regulator also gets the voltage to a reasonable level, someone should buy that from me lol.

Hmmm, Joel starts thinking of practical jokes he can fit in box that he returns regulator to JRWooden in.

[JRWooden]

Originally Posted by JoelWisman

I'm game, and yes, plenty of test F8's local being ridden by people that seem to like me. Not many would want their stock wiring hacked up, but I can cut the end off the SC regulator so its plug and play for the test. That means if my SC regulator also gets the voltage to a reasonable level, someone should buy that from me lol.

Hmmm, Joel starts thinking of practical jokes he can fit in box that he returns regulator to JRWooden in.

Outstanding!
PayPal account is being spun up now ... didn't have the $125 or whatever on hand.

Joel: PM me your address and I'll buy and have it shipped to you direct.

I wonder if I could use a pair of those Freight-Harbor trash-pick-up tongs to open the R/R box when it arrives?

[MTrider16]

Joel,

Did I miss your reply about charging lead/acid batterys at voltages over 13.8?

David

[ebrabaek]

Ok.... I just purchased the mosfet r/r from ebay.... If you want to hold of JRW..... I will install it and test it as it gets here.... rather than do the double wire mod....as I feel confident that it will not raise the voltage enough. Should be here sometime next week.

Erling

[JoelWisman]

Originally Posted by MTrider16

Joel thanks for posting a summary here. I will be keeping an eye on mine.

Why does higher regulator voltage help out? Our company control guys think 13.8 is a high voltage for a lead acid battery for thier backup DC systems.

Regards,
David

OUTSTANDING QUESTION! I would have answered it by now but I missed it.

I used to be responsible for $600,000 worth of UPS batteries for an industrial process that had to terminate gracefully when I was an industrial electrician.

There are multiple answers.

1) Differing battery chemistries. UPS and backup batteries are USUALLY gel cel batteries which have a totally different ideal charge algorithm. Amongst other things, they need a lower bulk and absorption voltage.

2) All lead / acid batteries fail from the same things. Drying out, minimized by lower absorption and float voltages. Batteries may claim and in fact with AGM and Gel, ARE sealed, but one of the gasses produced during charging, especially at higher voltages is hydrogen. Hydrogen is a leaky sneaky gas that will seep right through plastic and metal containers, so even sealed batteries will eventually dry out.

To minimize this, the lowest feasible charging voltage is ideal, but drying out is a very long term killer of AGM and gel batteries, usually taking 5 to 15 years.

Sulfating is a natural part of a batteries life. when you discharge a lead/acid battery, the electrons come from sulfating one of the lead plates. it takes time to convert this sulfate back to pure lead. the lower the charging voltage, the longer it takes.

If sulfate is allowed to remain, it forms hard deposits that are permanent and destroys the batteries capacity and cranking amps in direct correlation of how much of the surface area is hard sulfated.


Batteries in UPS use sit 99.9% of their life fully charged and continue sly being gently charged. the 0.1% they spend being depleted is countered by that continues charging. That tends to make hard sulfating non existent and simultaneously means if the battery is charged at a higher voltage, battery dry out will occur too quickly. In short, UPS life for a battery means dry out is nearly always the ultimate cause of death.

To maximize life, UPS batteries are charged very gently.

SLI batteries (Starting,Lighting Ignition) are discharged every time you start the bike. with accessories powered, the battery is usually being discharged every time you are idling, and any headlight use once the engine is off also discharges the battery.

In addition, most bikes and especially BMW bikes have large parasitic draws when the key is off to support the clock, volatile memory, and the wonders of a signal over wire power let that can detect when an ubber expensive BMW battery charger is attached.

As such, SLI batteries are sulfated regularly. To make matters worse, charging is not constant but only when the key is on and charging system is meeting demand or when the customer plugs the bike into a battery charger.

Short trips almost never have enough time to fully put back what the starter withdrew, and in general SLI use is simply hellos for a battery.

to combat sulfating and prevent as much of it from becoming hardened as possible with SLI batteries, you need a HOT charger that gets the voltage towards the upper threshold.

13.8 would be fine if the bike was always being charged, and rarely being drawn down, but this simply isn't the case for SLI use.

Lastly BMW uses AGM batteries, and amongst SLI lead acid batteries AGM is the best. AGM batteries like the hottest charge of all SLI lead acid chemistries.

Will it dry out batteries quicker to charge at 14.4 volts compared to 13.8 volts? YOU BET, but its irrelevant because an SLI AGM battery never survives long enough to dry out and is always killed by hard sulfating or buss corrosion long before drying out could ever occur.

Out of probably 2000 failed car and motorcycle AGM batteries I have tested, I have yet to find one that dried out before dying from sulfating or buss corrosion.

So....... your company control guys are right, but not for AGM batteries in SLI applications.

Clear as mud?

[MTrider16]

Yep that makes sense, thanks for the long reply.

David

[Gangplank]

I'm interested to see how the MOSFET R/R does. Might be a simple solution & likely can be sourced elsewhere in addition to fleabay. There are people who make them for GSXR-600s & 750s b/c those bikes have a high R/R failure rate. It's a poor quality unit stock.


On a related topic/question. How about the use of a non-BMW charger. I use a battery tender or yuasa knock off version on both my F8GS & GSXR-750 trackbike. If I'm not riding it the bike is on the charger almost all of the time. Since I've started using them I have yet to have a battery fail. Whether lead acid or AGM. Keep them charged and they seem to last 5+ yrs no problem. I wired mine via a pigtail direct to the battery. I put the ASE pigtail on the left side of the bike and zip tied it to the trellis frame.

Joel-WSMN any thoughts on using the battery tenders w/ float mode to maintain the battery? Any reason why the BMW expensive version would be better than a Deltran battery tender plus?

[JRWooden]

Originally Posted by ebrabaek

Ok.... I just purchased the mosfet r/r from ebay.... If you want to hold of JRW..... I will install it and test it as it gets here.... rather than do the double wire mod....as I feel confident that it will not raise the voltage enough. Should be here sometime next week.

Erling

Erling & Joel:
Sounds good, I'll let you be the test-dummy Erling
I'm still in the middle of man-ing up my paypal account.
I would hope the voltage would increase to something "reasonable" ...
but I'm not exactly sure how to construct a real test to be sure we are not injecting noise that will confuse the CANBUS ... Measuring AC-ripple and actuating the accy. switches to confirm proper operation are a good start ... but hardly seem conclusive.

As Joel said, the battery does act like a huge capacitor and "should" kill off high-frequency stuff.

Edit: PS: Erling: do you have a way to measure max. current produced by the stator?
I'm hoping for a reduction!

[Gangplank]

From what I'm reading on CAN bus systems they are actually noise tolerant.

From here: http://www.ti.com/lit/an/sloa101a/sloa101a.pdf

"Signaling is differential which is where CAN derives its robust noise immunity and fault tolerance. Balanced differential signaling reduces noise coupling and allows for high signaling rates over twisted-pair cable. Balanced means that the current flowing in each signal line is equal but opposite in direction, resulting in a field-canceling effect that is a key to low noise emissions. The use of balanced differential receivers and twisted-pair cabling enhance the common-mode rejection and high noise immunity of a CAN bus."

Interesting reading up on it. People seem to like to bitch about CANbus. Seems the benefits out weigh the drawbacks. I guess people don't like it b/c it's not as owner friendly to work with as other systems. But the benefit is less problems overall for the MFG.

To my mind I'll accept less user workability to gain reliability. But then again, I'm not alt to be cutting into my wiring harness like others might.

[JRWooden]

Originally Posted by Gangplank

From what I'm reading on CAN bus systems they are actually noise tolerant.

From here: http://www.ti.com/lit/an/sloa101a/sloa101a.pdf

"Signaling is differential which is where CAN derives its robust noise immunity and fault tolerance. Balanced differential signaling reduces noise coupling and allows for high signaling rates over twisted-pair cable. Balanced means that the current flowing in each signal line is equal but opposite in direction, resulting in a field-canceling effect that is a key to low noise emissions. The use of balanced differential receivers and twisted-pair cabling enhance the common-mode rejection and high noise immunity of a CAN bus."

Interesting reading up on it. People seem to like to bitch about CANbus. Seems the benefits out weigh the drawbacks. I guess people don't like it b/c it's not as owner friendly to work with as other systems. But the benefit is less problems overall for the MFG.

To my mind I'll accept less user workability to gain reliability. But then again, I'm not alt to be cutting into my wiring harness like others might.

I like it ..... but I am worried about "confusing" it ....

I work on X-10 home automation systems from time to time. X-10 uses a high-frequency signal imposed over the AC line to communicate. I have this clever little box (which only cost about $40) that I can plug into an outlet - it displays the control signals it is seeing on the line, how strong the signal is, and how much, if any, interference is present.
I wonder if anybody makes a box like that for CANBUS ... if they do, I'll bet you can't get one for $40 ....

[ebrabaek]

Originally Posted by JRWooden

Erling & Joel:
Sounds good, I'll let you be the test-dummy Erling
I'm still in the middle of man-ing up my paypal account.
I would hope the voltage would increase to something "reasonable" ...
but I'm not exactly sure how to construct a real test to be sure we are not injecting noise that will confuse the CANBUS ... Measuring AC-ripple and actuating the accy. switches to confirm proper operation are a good start ... but hardly seem conclusive.

As Joel said, the battery does act like a huge capacitor and "should" kill off high-frequency stuff.

Edit: PS: Erling: do you have a way to measure max. current produced by the stator?
I'm hoping for a reduction!

I wont, as ,y new meter only reaches up to 20 amp....( about 280 watts) That would be only measured on the DC side anyway. I do have a ac clamp meter that I sometimes use on the aircraft...... I could clamp one ac leg at a time....Multiply with 3...etc... But I am not sure I would be able to conclude anything. As I reached 400 watt by hooking up lord knows how much stuff..... I'm not keen at reaching that power,....as errors...risking going over, and frying the stator, would yield inconclusive results. I would ...however be interested in what the ac ripple does....as you increase the load. But in a nutshell.... If it raises the charging voltage to say 14.2- 14.5 range... then the battery will be in a better stage of charge..... ( except for perhaps the evaporation).....and the stator will run cooler. So it is a win-win situation. I cannot believe the mosfet rr would be noisier than the stock. We shall see. He just shipped it.... But I will be in San Antonio, TX Monday through Friday of next week. So It will be another week before I get to it......

Erling