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Old 04-24-2012, 06:29 AM   #346
JRWooden
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Indy Unlimited View Post
Quote form Lukas M many pages ago:

I have talked to Rick's (Motorsport electrics), and so has somebody else on F800riders. They are willing to do it and would simply copy the stock configuration. I think it's $145 which includes return shipping:

http://f800riders.org/forum/showthre...sed-Durability
Any mention from Rick as to what the temperature rating is for the wire they use?
Per Joel's measurements, we need at least 200C rated wire.

If they increased the gauge of wire they used to rewind these stators by one size I wonder how much output would be lost? Reliability would surly be increased by such a change ...
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Old 04-24-2012, 04:02 PM   #347
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A few notes on the oe stator I did not know when this thread started:

The first and primary line of defense for stators is the insulation the magnet wire comes with pre-applied. The reason this insulation is absolutely primary is that when you wing a stator, many many points on the magnet wire will be touching with only the thin coating of each piece of magnet wire separating them and insulating them electrically.

Next up is the dip. A good dip and bake will immobilize the stator winding. This is important not from a vibration of the machine point of view, it is important because copper becomes an electro-magnet when current is flowing through it. As such, each and every inch of magnet wire is repulsed and pushed by the rotor magnets as they pass over in just about every possible direction. Without a good dip or three, the copper wire will fatigue and crack as well as rub against adjacent wire and wear through insulation.

The aftermarket knows how to wind a stator with new magnet wire and it knows how to dip and bake it, what it does not realize is that the BMW oe stator comes with magnet wire insulated with semi-exotic insulation rated for 200c and even that is not high enough due to design flaw, unless BMW was aiming to make a 30,000 mile stator which I don't think they were.

All other brands of motorcycle I have researched use 180c magnet wire and so does the aftermarket.

When any aftermarket stator rewinder, rewinds a K7X stator, they likely use 180c magnet wire as that seems to be the motorcycle standard, and of course it fails very rapidly as the BMW design runs the stator super hot. Even if they used semi-exotic 200c magnet wire, it would still fail on average as fast as the oe stator does and likely quicker as it is going to be hard for an aftermarket re-winder to wind as smoothly as Denso does with their million dollar stator winder machine, and a winding with more twists, bends, or tension will fail a little sooner due to stressing the already overheated magnet wire insulation.


There are 3 ways to create a longer life charging system for the K7X platform:

1: Reduce the load and there by the heat. you can do this by adding resistance to stator output AC wires, changing the number of turns of the stator. reducing the magnetic flux from the rotor, or likely by using a series R/R. The effect of the first methods can be known by mathematical formulas. The effect of a series regulator has so many variables that we aren't going to know its effect until a few people run with one for 50,000+ miles, though I personally suspect it will help and likely a lot.

2: Increase stator cooling. This can be done by thermally bonding the stator to the stator cover (and ideally adding a radiator to the cover). Adding an oil jet directed at the stator, or weaving in a cooling loop. The first method is the only one I could do easily, and how much effect it would have would likely be smallish, though maybe enough.

3: Wind the stator with exotic magnet wire that can resist more heat. This is harder then it sounds. Exotic magnet wire is, well, exotic. You can't find it many places and it is by nature expensive. It is also usually a bear to work with and of course someone needs to know more then I to find a magnet wire insulated with something that can withstand more heat, hold up to common lay-up methods, AND resist the chemicals in modern engine oil as well as gasoline. I don't know what type of magnet wire this would be, but someone working for JPL could name it off the top of their heads.


Where there is a will, there is a way. Other then adding resistance to the AC stator output wires or selecting a series R/R. Will the series R/R cool the stator enough? Is the quantity of resistance I added to the AC stator output wires enough? I will let you know in a couple of years, if I still remember :) But just having the stator rewound is not going to be effective unless the rewinder uses 240c magnet wire or higher.
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Old 04-24-2012, 04:31 PM   #348
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Ya know, this is really discouraging.
I guess this pretty well kiboshes any chance of an after market
450W stator because BMW designed such a blazing turd oem unit.
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Old 04-24-2012, 04:57 PM   #349
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoelWisman View Post
A few notes on the oe stator I did not know when this thread started:

The first and primary line of defense for stators is the insulation the magnet wire comes with pre-applied. The reason this insulation is absolutely primary is that when you wing a stator, many many points on the magnet wire will be touching with only the thin coating of each piece of magnet wire separating them and insulating them electrically.

Next up is the dip. A good dip and bake will immobilize the stator winding. This is important not from a vibration of the machine point of view, it is important because copper becomes an electro-magnet when current is flowing through it. As such, each and every inch of magnet wire is repulsed and pushed by the rotor magnets as they pass over in just about every possible direction. Without a good dip or three, the copper wire will fatigue and crack as well as rub against adjacent wire and wear through insulation.

The aftermarket knows how to wind a stator with new magnet wire and it knows how to dip and bake it, what it does not realize is that the BMW oe stator comes with magnet wire insulated with semi-exotic insulation rated for 200c and even that is not high enough due to design flaw, unless BMW was aiming to make a 30,000 mile stator which I don't think they were.

All other brands of motorcycle I have researched use 180c magnet wire and so does the aftermarket.

When any aftermarket stator rewinder, rewinds a K7X stator, they likely use 180c magnet wire as that seems to be the motorcycle standard, and of course it fails very rapidly as the BMW design runs the stator super hot. Even if they used semi-exotic 200c magnet wire, it would still fail on average as fast as the oe stator does and likely quicker as it is going to be hard for an aftermarket re-winder to wind as smoothly as Denso does with their million dollar stator winder machine, and a winding with more twists, bends, or tension will fail a little sooner due to stressing the already overheated magnet wire insulation.


There are 3 ways to create a longer life charging system for the K7X platform:

1: Reduce the load and there by the heat. you can do this by adding resistance to stator output AC wires, changing the number of turns of the stator. reducing the magnetic flux from the rotor, or likely by using a series R/R. The effect of the first methods can be known by mathematical formulas. The effect of a series regulator has so many variables that we aren't going to know its effect until a few people run with one for 50,000+ miles, though I personally suspect it will help and likely a lot.

2: Increase stator cooling. This can be done by thermally bonding the stator to the stator cover (and ideally adding a radiator to the cover). Adding an oil jet directed at the stator, or weaving in a cooling loop. The first method is the only one I could do easily, and how much effect it would have would likely be smallish, though maybe enough.

3: Wind the stator with exotic magnet wire that can resist more heat. This is harder then it sounds. Exotic magnet wire is, well, exotic. You can't find it many places and it is by nature expensive. It is also usually a bear to work with and of course someone needs to know more then I to find a magnet wire insulated with something that can withstand more heat, hold up to common lay-up methods, AND resist the chemicals in modern engine oil as well as gasoline. I don't know what type of magnet wire this would be, but someone working for JPL could name it off the top of their heads.


Where there is a will, there is a way. Other then adding resistance to the AC stator output wires or selecting a series R/R. Will the series R/R cool the stator enough? Is the quantity of resistance I added to the AC stator output wires enough? I will let you know in a couple of years, if I still remember :) But just having the stator rewound is not going to be effective unless the rewinder uses 240c magnet wire or higher.
Well said! +1 on this
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Old 04-24-2012, 07:40 PM   #350
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobobob View Post
Ya know, this is really discouraging.
I guess this pretty well kiboshes any chance of an after market
450W stator because BMW designed such a blazing turd oem unit.
There is not a whole lot of room, but with careful lay up, a stronger rotor, and exotic stator magnet wire, this could be done, but the guys you are looking for who know what kind of magnet wire to use to resist both heat, hand lay up and chemicals / gasoline in crankcase oil DO NOT work in the transportation sector.

Sorry, even while I was an electrician I never encountered an application that needed over 200c insulation magnet wire that was oil, chemical and solvent resistant.
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Old 04-24-2012, 08:04 PM   #351
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I hold out some hope for Electrosport to come up with something

I gave them all the details on the "pinch points" and his reply sounded like he was up for the challenge

200C - ok we'll work from that baseline... wire with lower bulk resistivity insulation ...perhaps detuning ... etc.
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Old 04-24-2012, 08:40 PM   #352
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRWooden View Post
I hold out some hope for Electrosport to come up with something

I gave them all the details on the "pinch points" and his reply sounded like he was up for the challenge

200C - ok we'll work from that baseline... wire with lower bulk resistivity insulation ...perhaps detuning ... etc.
The lower restively magnet wire is a mixed bag. 1: unless you go up in wire size, the difference between chinese copper and aerospace stuff isn't that much in the resistance department, and lowering the resistance will increase current and nullify some of the gain.

200c and preferably higher magnet wire insulation thats chemical, solvent, oil, and gasoline resistant is the key.

Just winding the thing for lower power output would work as well, but those who want giant incandescent driving lights and heated everything will wail a terrible wail lol (me included, though my auxiliary lights are LED and HID)
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Old 04-24-2012, 09:18 PM   #353
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoelWisman View Post
The lower restively magnet wire is a mixed bag. 1: unless you go up in wire size, the difference between chinese copper and aerospace stuff isn't that much in the resistance department, and lowering the resistance will increase current and nullify some of the gain.

200c and preferably higher magnet wire insulation thats chemical, solvent, oil, and gasoline resistant is the key.

Just winding the thing for lower power output would work as well, but those who want giant incandescent driving lights and heated everything will wail a terrible wail lol (me included, though my auxiliary lights are LED and HID)
They could always pull a page from your playbook and use aerospace wire in the stator and a short bit of nichrome wire in the leadset right? ... That really was a clever trick you came up with....

If they come up with something they think will work ... I'm hoping we'll hear their thought process on it.
If they announce a stator for the twins I'll call the guy on the phone and politely demand it ...
(And then post it here of course....)
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Old 04-24-2012, 10:11 PM   #354
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Series RR. Check.
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Old 04-26-2012, 11:35 AM   #355
JoelWisman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRWooden View Post
They could always pull a page from your playbook and use aerospace wire in the stator and a short bit of nichrome wire in the leadset right? ... That really was a clever trick you came up with....

If they come up with something they think will work ... I'm hoping we'll hear their thought process on it.
If they announce a stator for the twins I'll call the guy on the phone and politely demand it ...
(And then post it here of course....)
The nichrome resistor came from my years as an industrial electrician. A typical conversation with the VP of production at the first plant I worked at would go something like this: "Joel, do you know how much money we loose when the line goes down? We loose 40k an hour! This machine has gone down twice in the last month and both times it took you almost an hour to fix! This is unacceptable, completely unacceptable!"

"Jim, this machine is a hodgepodge thats mostly made in China and it wasn't even made to do what we are doing with it. The wiring diagram is not even in a european language, its in Chinese and the symbols aren't anything recognizable, I mean what is that symbol, is it a resistor? capacitor? diode? whats the value? there aren't any numbers near it!"

"Joel, your an electrician, fix it! Thats why we pay you the extraordinary amount we pay you! If you don't know how to read a Chinese diagram (scorn drips from his voice), look at the component and figure out what it is and the value. You are an electrician aren't you? Don't you have a multimeter for fracks sake!"

"Jim, I've already traced the component on the board, it is the thing that is now shaped like a charcoal briket and its smoking. Whatever it was, it isn't now, a multimeter isn't going to help man!"

"Joel, this is why we employ electricians. If I needed smart ass remarks id bring a production worker over here and save money as they are only paid minimum, now fix it already will you, were loosing 40K an hour!"

"Jim, I think it was a big resistor. We don't have anything that big in inventory, and I still don't know the value. Go get the space heater Mel's secretary keeps her legs warm with and always blows the office computers UPS with and I will steal some resistance wire out of it."

" Joel, thats the presidents secretary! If I take her space heater and you break it we will have to buy her another one! Money doesn't grow on trees! And don't you be talking about her legs! We are a professional outfit and you can't be talking about peoples legs in a professional outfit or we could get a sexual harassment suit! And what do you mean I should get it? I'm the VP of production! I am paid a lot of money to do what I do!"

(Joel hangs head and tries to figure out what a VP of production does when the production line is down. Jim sends a lower wage production worker to get secretaries space heater so he can explain to me that decisions like his to send someone lower wage saves the company money which is why he is management. I replace the charcoal briket with a length of resistance wire and trim it until the machine that shoves mis-formed frisbees off of the conveyor goes quick enough to not foul the next frisbee but slow enough to not ketch on fire again. The company buys a 1500 watt space heater to replace the secretaries 1000 watt heater that I broke. The new heater blows the office UPS circuit every time she uses it instead of just occasionally. I run a new circuit right to the secretaries desk using MC cable. Jim demands to know why I used MC cable instead of less expensive NM cable. I explain we are a heavy industrial facility and the code does not allow NM cable even in the office portion of the facility since it is attached to the industrial building. Jim explains that we pay the cities chief inspector good money so that we "will not be being bothered with things like codes".........)


Back to the topic of this thread.........

An aftermarket company that makes stators should have the connections to find out what kind of exotic magnet wire insulation will hold up to higher temperature AND the chemicals and solvent in motor oil. I suspect "Polyimide - ML" would work, and it is rated 240c, but someone over my pay grade needs to make sure it can withstand the chemicals and solvents in motor oil, or find something else that will.

Exotic magnet wire won't add THAT much to the stator cost, and quite honestly, if an aftermarket company advertises a stator for a modern BMW adventure bike that is rated 40c higher then oe, I think they could charge a premium price and get it.

Then we won't have to worry about mods or regulators, other then sourcing commonly available R/Rs to be nicer to the battery.

As LukasM stated, "not one oem uses a series R/R". My take on this is that there are reasons for this that may not simply have to do with money. I have no doubt it can be done right, but at the least with a large penalty on money and bulk.
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Old 04-26-2012, 02:14 PM   #356
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I like the story
It kinda reminds me of one of my personal favorites:

http://www.nucleuslearning.com/conte...gineer-funny-0

I do think that tune can be named and ....
compared to the price of a BMW stator (cleverly packaged with a flywheel you don't need)
I'll bet the price would be OK!

I promise to keep up with ElectroSport and make sure they don't forget ....
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Old 04-27-2012, 06:25 AM   #357
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Joel,

Great story....it sure is nice to be retired and not have to deal with BS like that.

Insulation that with stands around 600F /240C + (if my memory serves) does exist. In a past life the company I worked for made variable reluctance sensors (a coil of wire that sense metal as it passed by) for torque sensor in turbo prop or helo engines
I'm not sure the insulation thickness is compatible with the typical motor/stator winding insulation thickness so the number of winding might not fit on the BMW stator core.
Sorry but I have no memory of name/source of that wire. But it should not be hard for a aftermarket winder, who knew his stuff, to find it and like you say offer a premium BMW replacement.
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Old 04-30-2012, 12:32 AM   #358
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Hello from Austria,

my stator died too after 73.000km.

The problem is not the stator himself, but the flywheel! There is a new generator offered by BMW (partnumber 12 31 8 524 422), and the new flywheel has big holes for oil to cool the stator!

At the stator I could find no difference (although there may be one - I am no exert for electrics!)
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Old 04-30-2012, 01:15 AM   #359
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rubbermuh View Post
Hello from Austria,

my stator died too after 73.000km.

The problem is not the stator himself, but the flywheel! There is a new generator offered by BMW (partnumber 12 31 8 524 422), and the new flywheel has big holes for oil to cool the stator!

At the stator I could find no difference (although there may be one - I am no exert for electrics!)
Well that would make a difference!

I wouldn't run out and drill holes in your old flywheels, it's full of magnets and drilling one of them will shatter it.

If BMW has redesigned the flywheel, in addition to holes to maybe pickup oil and at least introduce some air cooling, they could fool with the magnetic strength and maybe even add some weight to mood the buzzy zone up a bit and make it slightly harder to stall the engine.

Heres to hoping this mod took so long because they thought it out well
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Old 04-30-2012, 06:08 AM   #360
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Originally Posted by rubbermuh View Post
The problem is not the stator himself, but the flywheel! There is a new generator offered by BMW (part number 12 31 8 524 422), and the new flywheel has big holes for oil to cool the stator!
OK any pictures of the new Flywheel?
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