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Old 05-03-2012, 01:28 PM   #391
Gangplank
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRWooden View Post
The implication is that the design will allow for oil cooling, or possibly air cooling ... it's not clear ... at least to me ...

But yeah... whoever sees one first needs to snap pictures for the rest of us ... so that we can see if we think its a worthwhile $900 upgrade?
Or determine if the modifications can be done at home or by a local Machine shop. Take pics and send specs if possible on differences.
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Old 05-03-2012, 01:46 PM   #392
ragtoplvr
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Here is how these stators fail. As the wire insulation in the center hottest part of the stator ages because it's temperature rating is exceeded, it becomes brittle or soft. Eventually somewhere a turn shorts. This creates more heat, but worse, it reduces the impedance of the stator and the total current goes up. From this point, things avalanche pretty rapidly from the centers out until finally the insulation between the stator windings and the steel fails, at which point charging, but not burning stops. So after a few miles you find a charred mess that can not be failure analyzed.

Seen this way to many times, even recreated it in the lab once.

Rod
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Old 05-03-2012, 02:48 PM   #393
JRWooden
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Originally Posted by Gangplank View Post
Or determine if the modifications can be done at home or by a local Machine shop. Take pics and send specs if possible on differences.
The thought had occurred to me as well.... here's hoping ....

OEMParts has a note that says "plus core" .... when the work is done at a dealership (out of warranty) can folks have the old parts back? It would be nice to have a few extra flywheels with which to experiment!
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Old 05-03-2012, 04:42 PM   #394
ebrabaek
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Lady's and gent's..... I think we better listen to all that ragtoplvr has to offer.......

Erling
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Old 05-03-2012, 07:09 PM   #395
MonsterJ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRWooden View Post
MonsterJ:
Looking at the parts catalog, I thought the stator was only available as part of a "kit" that included the flywheel....
Do you have the P/N handy for the superseded stator by it's self?
It sure does look different, I wonder how/if it's better?
JRWooden,

Sorry if I misled you but, I wasn't able to get just the stator. I bought the whole $810 assembly. I did ask the parts guys at Max BMW, A&S BMW, and SF BWM and no one knew what I was talking about IRT just the stator P/N. At least SF BMW stocked the "generator assembly" and is 20 minutes from my office. Since the assembly is the older P/N, my guess is that its no different then the smoked version I just removed.
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Old 05-03-2012, 07:11 PM   #396
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JRWooden,

Sorry if I misled you but, I wasn't able to get just the stator. I bought the whole $810 assembly. I did ask the parts guys at Max BMW, A&S BMW, and SF BWM and no one knew what I was talking about IRT just the stator P/N. At least SF BMW stocked the "generator assembly" and is 20 minutes from my office. Since the assembly is the older P/N, my guess is that its no different then the smoked version I just removed.
MonsterJ:

Thanks for the clarification .... I likely just was not reading you right....
You just need to make sure you burn this one up before your two year warranty expires.... may not be that hard....
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Old 05-03-2012, 08:36 PM   #397
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I do not have the experience to design a PM alternator, but I have worked in this industry for a long time and have some general observations

If you heat electric motor quality steel too hot you change the properties, I do not know for a fact, but it does seem reasonable that a rewind on a core that has been over heated will run hotter. I do know that cores that were oven treated, to get the old windings out, when rewound do put out about 5-10%% less amps, it seems reasonable that the lost amps go to heat, but I do not know.

If you use bigger wire with less turns, you will get more output, but at a higher RPM. This can make overheating worse. There is always a sweet spot. Did BMW wind to the sweet spot, this I can not know. It takes a megabuck software system to clean sheet these things. Naturally I do not have access. I probably could not run one if I did. Most motor designers seem to be PHD's I am not at that level. (Thank DOG)

There are exotic insulations, good for up to 240 C but for best results I suspect one of these would need to be wound on a core that had not been burned up first. You might have to buy a lot of the wire to get it at a. reasonable price unless you get lucky and someone has some leftover. This sounds like a very expensive experiment.

Just bigger wire will help, less heating. If you can fit it in with the same number of turns.

Now if you increase the air gap, you reduce the output without making more heat. If you do not need all the amps, then sanding .005 off the OD will probably take a few amps off peak. Now you have less heat, this might work if you can tolerate a 350 watt rather than a 400 watt. any volunteers?

Rod

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Rod
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Old 05-04-2012, 12:31 AM   #398
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Sorry, I am not the fastest - but here are pictures:
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Old 05-04-2012, 12:36 AM   #399
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Sorry, I am not the fastest - but here are pics:

http://at.fotoalbum.eu/rubbermuh/a695272/

I finished the repair one week before starting my trip to spain !
In two hours I leave, so we' ll meet again 7000km later ..... .

Wish you all the best,
Andi
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Old 05-04-2012, 04:33 AM   #400
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Beautiful pics and great work finding this new part. I guess that is going to be hard for us to duplicate by machining?
Good luck on the long trip Andi!
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Old 05-04-2012, 04:44 AM   #401
ragtoplvr
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The holes are not in the alternator chamber are they. I have not seen a this motor apart in person, but how will those holes cool the stater. There is wind generated by the magnet edges, it seems to me even smaller holes into the stator chamber would help the magnets act as vanes and pump air out. This might help.

Rod
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Old 05-04-2012, 07:21 AM   #402
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Thanks very much Andi!

Did you happen to notice if there was much different in weight of the two flywheels?

Without a photo from the other side it's hard to tell, but maybe the new flywheel is lighter?
I would say the old design was "light enough" as it was... perhaps there is more weight at the outer rim,
thus keeping the rotary inertia about the same or maybe a bit better.

I'm sure the new design will keep the stator MUCH cooler since air and oil can now get flung around in there with relative abandon ...

But ... yeah .. Indy ... I don't see much hope to remachine an old flywheel to mimic the new design point without loosing a lot of mass which would be bad. Then there is also the balance issues....

What is the purpose of the 3 smaller cap screws around the inside edge of the flywheel on the old design?

JRWooden screwed with this post 05-04-2012 at 07:32 AM
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Old 05-04-2012, 08:24 AM   #403
14TLC
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The new flywheel is really good news. I like to believe that this forum also contributed to the new flywheel design.
Is there a way to find out from when, or more accurate from which VIN, BMW started fitting them? I would really like to know whether my F800GS has it. I ordered mine in December last year, but production was fully booked for January and February. It was scheduled for production in March and i finally got it last week. I hope that I have the new flywheel.
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Old 05-04-2012, 03:48 PM   #404
chadams
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rubbermuh View Post
Sorry, I am not the fastest - but here are pics:

http://at.fotoalbum.eu/rubbermuh/a695272/

I finished the repair one week before starting my trip to spain !
In two hours I leave, so we' ll meet again 7000km later ..... .

Wish you all the best,
Andi
Nice work I'd be interested in hearing about the change in power delivery with the lighten parts?
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Old 05-05-2012, 06:35 AM   #405
JRWooden
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Indy Unlimited View Post
Beautiful pics and great work finding this new part. I guess that is going to be hard for us to duplicate by machining?
Good luck on the long trip Andi!
If you look at picture #6 in the series (and others) there are 3 cap screws coming in from the stator side in the old design flywheel that seem to be holding a two-piece assembly together? Also so it appears there are 3 more tapped holds that are unused. The new flywheel has 6 cap screws coming in from the engine side ... I'm not clear there on what's going on exactly ... anybody got a better idea?
If the old design flywheel is a two-piece assembly that would perhaps improve our chances of making some modifications to the thing...

EDIT: Those 3 cap screws hold the "freewheel housing" to the back of the flywheel for the starter gear...

On the new flywheel note the "chamfer" at the outer edges of the holes.... that's gotta be important...or they wouldn't have done it,
but I'm not sure why it's important....

Also in picture #8 at about 11 o'clock you see a passage way in the engine casting ... looking at the stator cover, it appears the passageway is just blocked off... what the heck is that all about?

JRWooden screwed with this post 05-05-2012 at 02:07 PM
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