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Old 05-05-2012, 07:39 AM   #406
bobobob
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Does anybody know if this new part is also on bikes coming off the assembly line
and it's possible to determine at what VIN the new part is installed?
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Old 05-05-2012, 10:38 AM   #407
JRWooden
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobobob View Post
Does anybody know if this new part is also on bikes coming off the assembly line
and it's possible to determine at what VIN the new part is installed?
I don't think there is any way for consumers to know that information .......
but I can tell you this ... If I were in the market for a new F800/650GS twin I would make the dealer take the side cover off for inspection before laying down $10K+ on one of these ....

If it had the old style ... I might buy it anyway ... after putting a "memo to file" to have it replaced before the warranty expired.
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Old 05-05-2012, 10:44 AM   #408
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Have we got any lawyers on this thread?

Ok I realize I'm jumping the gun here and that maybe ...
just maybe ...
BMW-North America will "do the right thing",
or something close to it and either drop new generator kits in our bikes or give us a deal on the upgraded kits.

But "for the sake of argument" if BMW-NA does not do the just and honorable thing...
Would this situation be fodder for a class-action lawsuit?
IMHO it is a safety issue, esp. since the bike in OEM profile has no way of warning the operator of impending doom,
and it is certainly not rare for these things to fail with < 50K miles on the clock.
I'd be willing to throw say $100 in the hat towards such action if our prospects of justice
(or at least getting BMW-NA's attention) were reasonable....
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Old 05-05-2012, 10:48 AM   #409
ebrabaek
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRWooden View Post
Ok I realize I'm jumping the gun here and that maybe ...
just maybe ...
BMW-North America will "do the right thing",
or something close to it and either drop new generator kits in our bikes or give us a deal on the upgraded kits.

But "for the sake of argument" if BMW-NA does not do the just and honorable thing...
Would this situation be fodder for a class-action lawsuit?
IMHO it is a safety issue, esp. since the bike in OEM profile has no way of warning the operator of impending doom,
and it is certainly not rare for these things to fail with < 50K miles on the clock.
I'd be willing to throw say $100 in the hat towards such action if our prospects of justice
(or at least getting BMW-NA's attention) were reasonable....
At this point.... I'd rather ask BMW to make the parts available to us say at 250-300 US$....rather than the i think 800 they currently wants.... imho..... That might change though...if they do not fix this. They are sooooo close to being over the hurdles with this bike, and I'd be willing to pitch in..... But that's just me....


Erling
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Old 05-05-2012, 11:33 AM   #410
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRWooden View Post
...
IMHO it is a safety issue, esp. since the bike in OEM profile has no way of warning the operator of impending doom....
Not wanting to upset the apple cart here but how is this a safety issue?

If the stator fails on the road the bike will not come to an immediately and unsafe stop. It'll eventually die or, if you stop somewhere, not start.

Sure there are some locales where having this occur would be a real nightmare (TAT, CDR, etc) but I'd classify this as a real serious annoyance ... not so much safety.
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Old 05-05-2012, 12:10 PM   #411
rockinrog
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I will stay out of the safety argument, but if a product fails because of a design flaw, I think they should be fixed/replaced free of charge to the consumer.
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Old 05-05-2012, 12:18 PM   #412
JRWooden
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ebrabaek View Post
At this point.... I'd rather ask BMW to make the parts available to us say at 250-300 US$....rather than the i think 800 they currently wants.... imho..... That might change though...if they do not fix this. They are sooooo close to being over the hurdles with this bike, and I'd be willing to pitch in..... But that's just me....


Erling
Free would be good, but yeah... the "give us a deal on the upgraded kits" would be fine by me ...
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Old 05-05-2012, 12:21 PM   #413
Gangplank
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRWooden View Post
Free would be good, but yeah... the "give us a deal on the upgraded kits" would be fine by me ...
Parts at cost would do it.
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Old 05-05-2012, 12:27 PM   #414
JRWooden
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Originally Posted by 'Flagger View Post
Not wanting to upset the apple cart here but how is this a safety issue?

If the stator fails on the road the bike will not come to an immediately and unsafe stop. It'll eventually die or, if you stop somewhere, not start.

Sure there are some locales where having this occur would be a real nightmare (TAT, CDR, etc) but I'd classify this as a real serious annoyance ... not so much safety.
I agree it is certainly a design flaw.

Safety issue might be stretching it ... but say for example:

You are driving down the interstate at 75mph with a semi-truck right behind you.
The stator died sometime back but you didn't know it ... and now ...
The battery drops below whatever voltage is needed to keep things alive
(injectors, fuel pump, computers ... whatever goes first.... I don't know....)
Question: What happens next?
Do we suffer a sudden and total loss of power, or does the bike start running like crap with enough "grace"
for us to get off the highway and out of harm's way?

Yeah... I don't really want to go there ... but I REALLY REALLY don't want to pay $1000 to get this fixed.
A couple hundred for the kit "at cost" would really be OK by me ....
but a grand ??? eh.......... not so much...
I think BMW owes us more than a single-finger salute.....
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Old 05-05-2012, 05:48 PM   #415
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I run a Kuryakyn LED Battery Gauge right in front of the handlebars. If it drops below 13 volts while running pull the headlight wiring and you can get another hour to get to a safe place to repair. 2 bright green lights is good 1 green light is a problem.
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Old 05-05-2012, 07:23 PM   #416
WayneC1
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The F800 series certainly has a problem & replacements should go out to owners

But I would ask a simple question, how many owners have lodged defect notices to NHTSA ?

We had front axle lugs breaking off the F650GS single & no one had reported it to NHTSA in the US or any other bodies in other countries so no action had been taken as they were not aware of the problem

By the time we had 10 defect notices from riders all around the world lodged with NHTSA they opened a preliminary enquiry. We did not get all we wanted from it but it put BMW on notice & they they had to respond. Since we took that action BMW have been more forthcoming to NHTSA with voluntary recalls on a number of other models

Joel referred to the fine BMW recently paid to NHTSA on failure to report/respond to problems, It has come about in part as a result of owners lodging reports as we did. Accompanying the fine NHTSA is also now belatedly investigating the infamous drive shaft failures on the 1200's

If anyone wants to stand any chance of getting anywhere with replacements, low cost or otherwise the first step is to lodge the complaints to bring pressure on BMW

https://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/ivoq/
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Old 05-05-2012, 08:49 PM   #417
vtbob
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I really don't like defending BMW/Rotax/Denso but I don't think this flaw is actionable. No I am not a lawyer.

We don't have any quantitive idea of how many failures have occurred, or at what time/milage. I suspect the numbers are small and the ad hoc milage seems to be 40 or 50 k miles. Out side of BMW established warrantee period.

I also don't see it as a safety issue.

Bike do age and wear out. At what point is wear out a design flaw? or When is it a design flaw if it did not last long enough. Tires, brakes, batteries, bearings, chains, lights, seats, etc all wear out.

All major manufactures continuously improve their designs/products. Early models of new bike design evolve and mature so the later model have many evolutionary changes that make the better and/or more reliable. Do all the people who bought the early models get free/low cost retrofits?

just my 2 cents
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Old 05-05-2012, 09:03 PM   #418
cathulu
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Stator is a bad design... Agree parts at cost. Don't agree with the poster above. :)

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Old 05-05-2012, 10:26 PM   #419
JRWooden
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WayneC1 View Post
... If anyone wants to stand any chance of getting anywhere with replacements, low cost or otherwise the first step is to lodge the complaints to bring pressure on BMW

https://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/ivoq/
Thanks Wayne
Honestly at this point we don't know we have only a "vocal minority" ... or a majority of owners with blown stators.
Filing a claim with DOT is a good step. Likewise some public accounting of failures would be nice...
The F800Riders.org forum allows a poll to be taken ... does ADVRiders allow this as well?

I think it prudent that all riders install some type of voltage monitoring device on their bikes.
This is what I did:

http://f800riders.org/forum/showthre...mp-GPS-adapter

I'd be happy to sent a copy of the template I used to make the bracket to any one that wants it ................
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Old 05-05-2012, 10:41 PM   #420
WayneC1
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One of the points of pressure with NHTSA which they have specified publicly is "surging and stalling"

Any machine with a failing stator is sure to stall in heavy traffic

The second way of prompting NHTSA into action is filing the complaints & when they have not acted in say 2 months
File a freedom of information request demanding all documents regarding the ODI reports & what they have done in response

I learnt a lot with the F650GS single problems & I must say I was one of the silent majority until I suffered the failure
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