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Old 02-20-2013, 07:48 PM   #721
Emmbeedee
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRWooden View Post
gotta be the dilithium ...
Yeah, those crystals are not cheap.
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"The motorcycle, being poorly designed for both flight and marine operation, sustained significant external and internal damage," police noted.
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Old 02-20-2013, 08:41 PM   #722
JRWooden
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Originally Posted by WayneC1 View Post
... So to the question :- Is the excessive heat generated within the stator or being induced from external temperatures into the stator
Wayne:
Here's an opinion ... (yeah I know what they say about opinions)

I'd say "generated in the stator" ....

The stock R/R is designed to always run the stator at maximum output, whether the bike needs the juice or not... thus at mid-range RPM or higher on a bike (esp. in hotter operating environments) the " I-squared-R" (I^2 * R) ... resistive heating of the windings is a source of significant heat generation that can warm the stator appreciably. Even though the resistance of the stator windings is low, the current can be as much as 30A total, and there is not much cooling going on either by oil splash or convection (from air flow) in the original design.

External temperatures can not be dismissed but .... from what I have read a "good" grade of wire/insulation would be designed to handle somewhere between 180 to 220 degrees Centigrade, and based on some actual field measurements (see: http://www.advrider.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15438749 ) and cooling system design which tries to keep system to somewhere close to 180 Fahrenheit even if it fails badly would still not give a bulk engine temperature at the 180C range (180C = 356F)

Again... just an opinion, I've not had time to study the issue in detail...
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Old 02-20-2013, 08:53 PM   #723
WayneC1
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Ah the good old V=RI and P=VI. Yes I tend to agree but they are going over the 220 mark

The one thing which I cannot resolve in my mind is that the damage from the pic's indicates the most damage at the bottom of the stator

Heat rises and I would normally expect the upper sections to cop the heat from the operation of the stator plus the radiated heat from below yet that is not what we are seeing which suggests to me there is more going on here than just the heat generated internal to the stator
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Old 02-21-2013, 03:18 AM   #724
MikeMike
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Take a look at where the header pipes pass on the outside of the case.
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Old 02-21-2013, 03:52 AM   #725
JoelWisman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WayneC1 View Post
Ah the good old V=RI and P=VI. Yes I tend to agree but they are going over the 220 mark

The one thing which I cannot resolve in my mind is that the damage from the pic's indicates the most damage at the bottom of the stator

Heat rises and I would normally expect the upper sections to cop the heat from the operation of the stator plus the radiated heat from below yet that is not what we are seeing which suggests to me there is more going on here than just the heat generated internal to the stator
I've seen 5 burned F8 stators up close and personal and the damage was in a different place every time but at casual glance always looked worse on the bottom. The bottom of the stator is the only part that regularly gets oil misted onto it. When you lightly wipe at it you find its just oil crud. There is no single point that the stator fails more often at.
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Old 02-21-2013, 04:03 PM   #726
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Very good to hear from you Joel!
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Old 02-21-2013, 04:57 PM   #727
vtbob
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I just got the electrosport stator today. Here is the picture.
They have an additional layer of "varnish" over the windings, like the original.
sorry I cropped of the connector and grommet...but they are identical to stock.

when it gets above freezing in my garage I'll install it.

oops links to post picture has disappeared!!
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Old 02-21-2013, 05:18 PM   #728
Emmbeedee
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I'd like to see people post pictures like this of their replacement (Rick's/Electrosport/What Have You) stator.

I was comparing the RM Stator to the BMW and found the RM version is quite a bit thinner.



I emailed them to see what they had to say about that but I have not heard back from them yet.

I wonder if this is the difference between a 280 and a 400 watt stator?

Just for the record, the part number for the F650GS single and F800GS twin is the same on Rick's web site, part number 21-023.
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"The motorcycle, being poorly designed for both flight and marine operation, sustained significant external and internal damage," police noted.
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Old 02-21-2013, 05:24 PM   #729
WayneC1
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Yes the F650 single 280 w was a thinner unit than the F650GS single 400 watt unit, some suppliers confuse the two
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Old 02-21-2013, 11:22 PM   #730
JoelWisman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRWooden View Post
Very good to hear from you Joel!
i'm back to stay, was just ultra busy. When I took over at new shop I gently got rid of any techs I wouldn't trust to work on my own bike which left me working extreme hours.

Still looking for one more replacement but it may be a while cause good techs are extremely hard to find!

Also some BMW owners followed me to new shop so have just been exceptionally busy and in addition to all that, I had to get a bunch of new training.

But..... done with training for a while and down to working about 50 hours a week.

As far as stators, looking at the quality of insulation is helpful and informative but as to how they are laid out, theres no substitution for testing. A stator can be physically smaller and yet put out more and be more durable. It all depends on what materials are used and how efficient the design / winding are.

Looking at pics is a start but only long term testing is going to clear things up.

P.S. last time I was around BMW had just came out with a new rotor that had holes in it. Any info pop up with experience with updated part? My best friend that works corporate with BMW is the North American parts boss these days and seemed to think that the new oe part is the fix. I normally wouldn't have much faith in a parts boss but prior to his promotion he was nothing short of the finest field service engineer BMW had so I listen when he says something is fixed.

P.P.S. I care about all of you and your motorcycles but don't get back to the forum as often as I should even in the best of times. If any of you are going on trips or having issues you are welcome to my phone #. texts or phone calls are way more likely to get my attention in a timely fashion then forum posts. Just PM me if u want it.
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Old 02-22-2013, 04:37 AM   #731
vtbob
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ooops The site's format has changed and I do not see how to post a picture any more....sorry for clutter

vtbob screwed with this post 02-22-2013 at 04:44 AM
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Old 02-22-2013, 04:59 AM   #732
Emmbeedee
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Originally Posted by vtbob View Post
ooops The site's format has changed and I do not see how to post a picture any more....sorry for clutter
I think there was some kind of an upgrade to the site last week which applied a different theme, the cRaSH one. Look for the little theme dropdown window at the bottom of your Adv page and change it to ADVRider 2.0 or something else.
__________________
Want to know more about the Garmin Montana? See the Wisdom and FAQ Thread.
Want to know more about the Garmin VIRB? See here.
"The motorcycle, being poorly designed for both flight and marine operation, sustained significant external and internal damage," police noted.
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Old 02-22-2013, 05:32 AM   #733
JRWooden
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoelWisman View Post
...

As far as stators, looking at the quality of insulation is helpful and informative but as to how they are laid out, theres no substitution for testing. A stator can be physically smaller and yet put out more and be more durable. It all depends on what materials are used and how efficient the design / winding are.

Looking at pics is a start but only long term testing is going to clear things up.

P.S. last time I was around BMW had just came out with a new rotor that had holes in it. Any info pop up with experience with updated part? My best friend that works corporate with BMW is the North American parts boss these days and seemed to think that the new oe part is the fix. I normally wouldn't have much faith in a parts boss but prior to his promotion he was nothing short of the finest field service engineer BMW had so I listen when he says something is fixed.

P.P.S. I care about all of you and your motorcycles but don't get back to the forum as often as I should even in the best of times. If any of you are going on trips or having issues you are welcome to my phone #. texts or phone calls are way more likely to get my attention in a timely fashion then forum posts. Just PM me if u want it.
There is not a lot of experience with the new parts yet, but I do suspect the new flywheel probably fixes it ... convection cooling is a wonderful thing I only wish BMW would either give me one for free, or at least give me a break on the $900 kit price.

Here's a set of pictures if you haven't see it:

http://at.fotoalbum.eu/rubbermuh/a695272/


With regard to the "resistors in the stator leads" trick, yeah two test cases isn't much, but it's nice to know that doesn't seem to impair operation.
I have a spare stator on the way
which will give me a spare plug to work with and I'd like to make a "pluggable" resistor bank for a little one-off testing!
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Old 02-22-2013, 06:56 AM   #734
Reaver
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My Eyes Hurt

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emmbeedee View Post
I'd like to see people post pictures like this of their replacement (Rick's/Electrosport/What Have You) stator.

I was comparing the RM Stator to the BMW and found the RM version is quite a bit thinner.

As Joel was saying, testing is the test.

Counting your "growth rings", I see the stock has 21 laminations and the RM has 20. The stock also has a mushroom head making it wider. The RM seems to have heavier guage wire and really bulks out the poles but without the mushroom head it may be an illusion. I understand the principal of operation but not the fine art of it all. The price is right. Keep us informed!

Joel:

Welcome back and thanks for all your wisdom. I wish I could work for you. I did 3 yrs at Motorrad in my area but found it was too "Mom and Pop" for me (Canada Eh!). Small dedicated BMW exclusive shop with no growth or room to move. When the "low TP" light came on in the bathroom you were expected to go out and buy more. I just threw a bag of shop rags in there. No humour either. I miss working on bikes. More fun than aircraft.
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Old 02-22-2013, 04:34 PM   #735
Emmbeedee
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reaver View Post
As Joel was saying, testing is the test.

Counting your "growth rings", I see the stock has 21 laminations and the RM has 20. The stock also has a mushroom head making it wider. The RM seems to have heavier guage wire and really bulks out the poles but without the mushroom head it may be an illusion. I understand the principal of operation but not the fine art of it all. The price is right. Keep us informed!
Yes, I'm glad Joel said what he did about testing being the only true way to find out. I guess we're the Guinea Pigs for this one.

Thanks Joel!

It's started warming up here so I may put it into the bike this week.
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Want to know more about the Garmin Montana? See the Wisdom and FAQ Thread.
Want to know more about the Garmin VIRB? See here.
"The motorcycle, being poorly designed for both flight and marine operation, sustained significant external and internal damage," police noted.
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