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Old 08-02-2011, 01:02 AM   #61
Pcfly
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Englishmatt View Post
Thanks for the laugh!!! The theory of a loosened or lost drain plug, on both bikes is priceless! Truly thinking outside the FD box and I appreciate it.

Not sure why I didn't think to look and make sure I still had the drain plugs in both bikes...

For your scenario to work....BOTH bikes would have had to have lost the fluids at the same time. If you read my originial post, you'll see that I had the outer seal go bad in BC and Vancouver BMW replaced it and the FD oil.

I should be hearing from the dealer tomorrow....I'll let you all know what they say. It does make sense that dirt/sand/grim etc...may have entered via the boot and worked it's way into the FD housing. That's some what logical.

If that turns out to be the case, I'll know next time to pull the boot back and blow out any shite after riding the Dalton.

Neither the '09 or '10 have external venting...unless I'm missing something.
Oh there you go.........

I come here with an open mind and half an ear figuring hey, help a guy during his time of whining & whimpering, maybe add a comment or two, throw in my own experience, wish him all the best and just try to understand his situation. BUT NOOOOOOO.......You sir have to come back with your holier then now attitude, sprinkled with a sarcastic sense of pomp and circumstance, echoing the truth as if your words mean something and voicing the ten commandments with your nose in the air with a bit of disgust at a fair and balanced man to............enlighten yourself?! I hope BMW looks at your situation and thoroughly sticks you with a $3000 bill! The laughing in your head at that point.........you'll know where it came from.
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Old 08-02-2011, 03:00 AM   #62
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Ditto!

EM... I understand your question... why both at the same time? I have been in your situation.

In 2009, two of us (on a 2004GS and 2008GSA) had FD seal failures within 700km of each other. We were 3000km from home at the time and were fortunate that both seals gave out near populated areas... a day or two earlier on the ride and we would have needed to use my satphone to get help. On both bikes it was the pinion shaft seal that failed.

The ride featured very harsh off road conditions thru central Oz deserts with many many kms of corrugations. The day temps were approx 35C (95F). Each FD seal failure was preceded by creek crossings (approx FD depth) some 200km earlier. Both prior to and immediately after the creek crossings, our track speeds were approx 80 to 90kmh. We received no definitive answer on the cause of the failure from the dealer (same dealer fixed both seals) but the popular consensus among us 'amateurs' was the heat differential between the FD and 'cold' water of the creek crossing was enough to pop the seals. I am no mechanic, but in absence of any other common fact (between the bikes), the consensus seemed quite logical.

Did you have any water crossings prior to the seals failing?

The only difference I can gauge between your outcome and ours was that our FD's gave no abnormal bearing noise or side play.


BTW: PCFly... check your post... IMHO you were the one who decided to play the man and not the ball with your opening line. What were you expecting EM to say in reply?
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Old 08-02-2011, 03:26 AM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Englishmatt
Neither the '09 or '10 have external venting...unless I'm missing something.
Later 2010 models got the vent, earlier didn't.
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Old 08-02-2011, 03:52 AM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by farcall View Post
EM... I understand your question... why both at the same time? I have been in your situation.

In 2009, two of us (on a 2004GS and 2008GSA) had FD seal failures within 700km of each other. We were 3000km from home at the time and were fortunate that both seals gave out near populated areas... a day or two earlier on the ride and we would have needed to use my satphone to get help. On both bikes it was the pinion shaft seal that failed.

The ride featured very harsh off road conditions thru central Oz deserts with many many kms of corrugations. The day temps were approx 35C (95F). Each FD seal failure was preceded by creek crossings (approx FD depth) some 200km earlier. Both prior to and immediately after the creek crossings, our track speeds were approx 80 to 90kmh. We received no definitive answer on the cause of the failure from the dealer (same dealer fixed both seals) but the popular consensus among us 'amateurs' was the heat differential between the FD and 'cold' water of the creek crossing was enough to pop the seals. I am no mechanic, but in absence of any other common fact (between the bikes), the consensus seemed quite logical.

Did you have any water crossings prior to the seals failing?

The only difference I can gauge between your outcome and ours was that our FD's gave no abnormal bearing noise or side play.


BTW: PCFly... check your post... IMHO you were the one who decided to play the man and not the ball with your opening line. What were you expecting EM to say in reply?

Id like some more info regarding these failures if possible mate, Did they happen while the fd fluid refill amount was still 220 ml and not 180 and did the dealer under warranty install a complete new final drive on the 08 or did they repair it.?
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Old 08-02-2011, 04:46 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by Killa Meter View Post
Id like some more info regarding these failures if possible mate, Did they happen while the fd fluid refill amount was still 220 ml and not 180 and did the dealer under warranty install a complete new final drive on the 08 or did they repair it.?
Don't know what refill levels were used. Both bikes only had the pinion seal replaced. I still see both of them on a regular basis. Both have moved from around 30,000km on the odo to between 50,000 and 60,000km respectively. No probs with seals or FD since.

FYI - the ride we did was... Perth > Laverton > Gt Central Rd > Mereenie Loop (sp?) > Alice > Tanami Desert Rd > Bungle Bungles (2004GS failed at Warmun) > Kununurra > Gibb River Rd > Broome (2008GSA failed here). Plenty of water crossings on the Bungles track and GRR too.

A critical extra I should have mentioned... there was a 3rd 1200 with us. A 2007 GSA. He had no seal problems whatsover and yet rode the exact same tracks. Go figure!
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Old 08-02-2011, 06:19 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by vagueout View Post
...the 1200 FD is essentially NON rebuildable, bmw have no procedure for it, it's a matter of a new unit...
That's simply 100% incorrect.
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Old 08-02-2011, 10:12 AM   #67
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Somebody asked about the loading of the bikes and I don't think this was answered by the OP. I'm not making excuses here but if you're looking for a common thread between the two bikes (and a number of others it seems), that would be a place to look. Is it just me or do most of these FD failures have the common elements of a long trip, extreme conditions and very heavily laden bikes?
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Old 08-02-2011, 12:36 PM   #68
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Somebody asked about the loading of the bikes and I don't think this was answered by the OP. I'm not making excuses here but if you're looking for a common thread between the two bikes (and a number of others it seems), that would be a place to look. Is it just me or do most of these FD failures have the common elements of a long trip, extreme conditions and very heavily laden bikes?
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Old 08-02-2011, 02:52 PM   #69
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The original ring bearing, aka large bearing failed in my 2004 1150 at about 18,000 miles under warranty.
That was the bearing failing, in that the wheel had a lot of movement and had just begun to emit small drips.

In all cases the proper gear oil and amount has been used. In my experience with airheads, the F/D big bearings loosen up at about 75,000 miles to 100,000 miles.

That repair lasted until the F/D was removed at 97,000 miles on the way into the clutch and trans. At which point the input side seal was replaced in the F/D. This leaked, and was repaired again, but this time by a dealer willing to do it correctly, some 30,000 miles or so later. Then here at about 160,000 miles I went ahead and had all the bearings replaced in the F/D along with the seals. The big bearing had died with lots of movement but no leaking at all. all of the bearings were destroyed on removal. The freshened F/D is a joy. Some 6,000 miles later.

I do not feel these seal or bearing failures later in life are an issue. the first bearing seal failure at 18,000 miles? Certainly a problem that was taken care of.

Worn Out F/D and More
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Old 08-02-2011, 05:00 PM   #70
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It's always interesting

to read these final drive posts. The guys who have lost a bearing, thoroughly pissed, and the guys who have yet to lose a bearing telling them to suck it up.

I'm on the pissed side, after losing a final bearing 600 Km from the nearest dealer on the 3rd day of a 2 week holiday. My second final drive (different bike) went at home

I do ride two up, fully loaded (camping gear), and ride 90% like that. I love the bike, I just wish BMW would fix the problem.

I hope you get a positive resolution from BMW.
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Old 08-02-2011, 07:55 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by Pcfly View Post
Oh there you go.........

I come here with an open mind and half an ear figuring hey, help a guy during his time of whining & whimpering, maybe add a comment or two, throw in my own experience, wish him all the best and just try to understand his situation. BUT NOOOOOOO.......You sir have to come back with your holier then now attitude, sprinkled with a sarcastic sense of pomp and circumstance, echoing the truth as if your words mean something and voicing the ten commandments with your nose in the air with a bit of disgust at a fair and balanced man to............enlighten yourself?! I hope BMW looks at your situation and thoroughly sticks you with a $3000 bill! The laughing in your head at that point.........you'll know where it came from.
BMW will take care of the issue, I won't get stuck with a 3K bill, but thanks for your sentiment and ill wishes on the matter.

Please make sure we meet one day at an MOA rally, or other ADV meet so I can apologize in person for my closed minded approach to your bullshit responses. My bike is hard to miss...look for the flags.

Thanks FarCall, I read and reread PcFly's response(s)....can't figure out my "hollier than thou attitude" or "closed mindedness" or "sense of pomp and circumstance"....anyway...moving on...

On these bikes the fluid in the FD was filled with 180ML of fluid. Correct 75-90w Synth Fluid.

The "load" on the bike was between 130lbs and 140 lbs. Both riders, gear and bike....we are still about 100lbs under the GVWR.

We had NO water crossings, but did have 5 days of solid rain. The entire trip back down the Dalton was raining.

I too have been scratching my head on this one. Didn't hear from the the dealer today, but hope to tomorrow.

More to come tomorrow.

Matt.
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Old 08-02-2011, 11:03 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by AntonLargiader View Post
That's simply 100% incorrect.
Anton, granted i'm wrong in my statement, hearing it from yourself is all the confirmation i ask, however can you tell me if a 1200FD can be done by the typical rider/home mechanic with anywhere near the simplicity of the 1100/1150 ? and further to that why do dealerships replace rather than repair? Look forward to any info from you on this topic. Likewise i'd love to hear "Steptoe's" thoughts on the matter. i'm here to learn.
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Old 08-03-2011, 05:19 AM   #73
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Flogging the vent issue!

I work deep in the bowels of the automotive transmission design & manufacturing world and have dealt with many seal/bearing failures. In my experience, properly designed seals and bearings should last forever (in a practical sense). I see nothing fundamental about the GS final drive that should prevent this. So - my theory is simply bad design execution or manufacturing quality.

My first suspicion remains the vent. Seals with even a fraction of a psi of internal pressure wear out - fast. A few psi of negative pressure will suck in water and dirt. A hot axle hitting a water crossing or hard rain will cool off quickly and create a significant negative pressure. A cold axle heating up will create a positive pressure. These things need to be vented and that vent system CANNOT suck any water - ever. Water in transmission/axle lube is a bad thing. First, it creates steam when it boils - exacerbating the pressure issue. Second, it can rust the critical bearing surfaces when the bike sits. In my experience, the only solution that really works is the remote breather hose.

I'm going to work on fabricating a proper vent and remote breather hose for my 2005. The hose must be of a good material so it doesn't get brittle and crack. It needs to be properly secured so it doesn't wiggle off. It's opening needs to be in a high/dry place (say - next to the air intake under the tank) to avoid sucking water. I don't trust the vent BMW added in 2011 as I've never seen a vent/cap that really works (no leakage when fully submerged). I'll post some pictures - but I expect it will just look like an older 1150.

Since BMW once had a remote hose, this can't be the only factor. There are many manufacturing quality details that control the life of seals and bearings: surface finish, alignment, pre-loading, etc. Any one of these being out of whack could cause a problem. Also, there is the simple matter of size. A bearing that is too small will work fine if everything is perfect, but not be robust to these factors (or loading). Perhaps BMW sized the bearing, it passed their internal tests on the roads in Germany and they signed it off.

So - I'm not interested in BMW-bashing or defending, just trying to understand the root cause of all these failures with the hope of preventing my own. I'm learning a lot just reading the experiences of others.

I'd like to see some photos of the vent hose on the older GS bikes. Anyone got one?

PS - found this one from ErricZ: http://www.advrider.com/forums/showp...3&postcount=15 Just what I had in mind (although it shouldn't need to be this big)
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Old 08-03-2011, 05:36 AM   #74
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Interesting comments John.

A couple of years ago I was reading a thread on UKGSer where an inmate, who is a bearing expert, stripped down his GS FD (he had the workshop and know how to do this) and concluded that one of the 2 bearings in the FD was, from an experts point of view, under spec'd. I can't remember which bearing. There were shitloads of detailed pics in this thread.

IIRC, in essence, he was saying something similar to you in that, when all things are within normal range, the suspect bearing would cope with the engineered function of the FD. But he concluded that with the right combination of load/conditions/usage, the real world excesses would or could trigger a failure. He thought the margin or tolerance for failure was too tight for that bearing.

I'll try to find the thread...
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Old 08-03-2011, 05:45 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by vintagerider View Post

Anecdotal: In 11xx I have seen very early wheel bearing and gear box bearing failure shortly after Mobile 1 75w90 syn GL 5 was installed. (I have complete confidence in Mo 1 engine oils). Others have reported similar experience with this product. Other anecdotal: Similar ball bearing failure does not seem to occur where other brands of full syn GL5 were used. OP, can you tell us what brand of gear oil oil was installed just prior to departure?

Yes, improper assembly (shimming) at the factory was a known issue with certain 11xx FD's. So lets treat that separately.

I now believe, but have no scientific data, that certain syn GL 5 brands may be the cause of at least some of these FD big ball bearing failures as well as M97 , M94 gear box bearing failures.

I've been using Mobil ! 90w140 in my trans and FD for over 90,000 miles with no problems. I only rode to Alaska and back once. I know it's overkill but I change oil in both every year.
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