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Old 04-27-2005, 05:52 AM   #16
AFekete
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Thumb HB bars....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trevor S
Yup, me, on my Husky TE 610-E, doing about 120 km/h, through a creek, took some air coming into it (wide creek, no water, flat bottom, on a dirt road), landed in the creek bed, suspension bottomed out, an iceburg type rock (little bit sticking out and god only knows how much was under the dirt) sticking a few inches out, caught the skidplate and ripped 'er clean off... fark.. did it make an noise.. and it felt like the Hulk had hit the bike with a 15 pound sledge hammer ! I locked brakes up, hopped off, fearing the worst, no skidplate (bashplate as we call 'em in Oz), rode back, saw the rock with a big Alu. "gash" on it, plate had a hole punched in it and all mounts ripped flat. It was held on by hooks going over the frame rails and bolted through the skidplate to the hooks.

Here is a pic from the manufactuers site



Did it's job, wasted the skidplate, saved the bike. Sure as hell would have punched a hole in the engine without it.

I am more interetsed in a Ralye replica plate and hope to convice a mate who is a wizz at that shit to make me one, when I get my 640 Adv.

I am waiting with avid interest for Andrew F to report if the revised HB bars are any good
So far the reports are very good and I have placed a standing order for 20 pieces to comes to me next month. They changed the design and the mount of the cross bar to be a lot less stressed and now has vibration mounting hardware. I'll get pictures as soon as possible.

thanks,
Andrew
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Old 04-27-2005, 08:09 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AFekete
So far the reports are very good and I have placed a standing order for 20 pieces to comes to me next month. They changed the design and the mount of the cross bar to be a lot less stressed and now has vibration mounting hardware. I'll get pictures as soon as possible.

thanks,
Andrew
Sweet ! Great stuff as ever Andrew !
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Old 07-14-2005, 06:03 AM   #18
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Just an update:

I another couple of trips with the skidplate and no problems. More rock hits with some very large sounding rock hits in Clear Creek (BLM Cali). Clean it up and I can't find an serious marks!

I was waiting to finish up this review until I could get a good high center rock hit to really test the strength of the build. I am really focused on this because it looks so thin! However, maybe that is because I am not a Carbon Fiber person - I never had CF before.

Well, I found some pics that make me feel a little better about the thickness. These are two pics of KTM Factory Race bikes,

The first is KTM's Factory Baja bike note the skidplate:


The second is one of KTM's Factory Dakar bikes: (thanks for the closeup KTiM ) note the thickness:


If its good enough for them then it is probably good enough for us! I will still be trying for a high center but at this point I am thinking that the quality of the build on these things seems good to me and they will probably deal with most things we would throw at them!
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Old 01-04-2006, 09:33 AM   #19
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Someone asked me recently for more information so I am finally posting this. In my attempt to finish up this review - no high centering, sorry - during my hiatus from riding (injury recovery) I wrote to Carbon Performance, the manufacturer of the skidplate, to ask them some questions based upon their website's information and ask about the testing they performed on the part prior to releasing it. Here is their reply:

Quote:
Originally Posted by email
-----Original Message-----
From: Pro-carbon [mailto:sales@cedea.cz]
Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2005 1:38 AM
To: meat popsicle
Subject: RE:
Hello meat,
Im sorry for this unclean description on the webpage. It will be change asap.
The CKT 009 is only protector of oil filter.
The CKT 017 is protector of oil filter plus protector of engine which you can use like skid plate.
It mean, If you dont want to protect an engine, you can use only protector of oil filter CKT 009.
This part was tested on current MX races for one year without any problem.
Best regards
Marek
I thought that bit of information, in conjunction with other infomation gathered above might help ease concerns about the ability of CF to perform adequately in this application.

Again, from me.
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Old 01-24-2006, 01:15 AM   #20
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What's the status on this thing...

Seems like no one really went down a rock trail with this plate. Is it 'carbon', or 'carbon kevlar'. Big difference as the added kevlar will make sure the stuff stays together, while carbon would crack up and fall into pieces after hitting a serious rock.

I don't buy this 'MX tested' stuff, since we all know an MX track is less hard on skiddplates (hell a MX bike runs without one!) compared to enduro/rally.

The Rally skidplates are thick and well layered with kevlar!
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Old 01-24-2006, 05:57 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QMan
What's the status on this thing...

Seems like no one really went down a rock trail with this plate. Is it 'carbon', or 'carbon kevlar'. Big difference as the added kevlar will make sure the stuff stays together, while carbon would crack up and fall into pieces after hitting a serious rock.

I don't buy this 'MX tested' stuff, since we all know an MX track is less hard on skiddplates (hell a MX bike runs without one!) compared to enduro/rally.

The Rally skidplates are thick and well layered with kevlar!
I have not found a high-centering rock yet; there is another tester to the north of me that I have heard jackshiz about (not word one).

No kevlar that I am aware of - you do see the KTM Baja and Dakar CF skidplates above don't'cha? They are mighty thin as well, although the Dakar is a two-ply with some other material behind it.
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Old 11-16-2006, 08:30 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meat popsicle
I have not found a high-centering rock yet; there is another tester to the north of me that I have heard jackshiz about (not word one).

No kevlar that I am aware of - you do see the KTM Baja and Dakar CF skidplates above don't'cha? They are mighty thin as well, although the Dakar is a two-ply with some other material behind it.
I realize that this is an old thread, but I thought I would clarify this in case other newbies like me happen to read it:

Kevlar is much better suited in this application. Out of all composites it has the best impact resistance and toughness ratings, where carbon fiber would be the worst, even compared to fiberglass cloth (E and S glass). Thats why whitewater kayaks are made of Kevlar and not CF!


In response to meat popsicle,

As you said yourself, there is another material behind it! In this case a kevlar fabric, easily distinguishable by its yellow/black color. Also, thickness and other visual clues are not necessarily indicators of the strength. A well made part could be much stronger than one three times its size if better materials are used (e.g. expoxy vs. polyester resin) and a better technique that ensures perfect ratio between fabric and resin (pre-preg and vacuum bagging vs simple hand lay-up).

The reason why everybody (including me) uses carbon is that it looks so damn nice! When I make parts like this that will likely see impact, abrasion etc, I use mostly kevlar and then simply put on carbon layer last for looks.

Hope this info helps!

Lukas
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Old 11-16-2006, 10:34 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LukasM
...
Kevlar is much better suited in this application. Out of all composites it has the best impact resistance and toughness ratings, where carbon fiber would be the worst, even compared to fiberglass cloth (E and S glass). Thats why whitewater kayaks are made of Kevlar and not CF!


In response to meat popsicle,

...A well made part could be much stronger ... if better materials are used (e.g. expoxy vs. polyester resin) and a better technique that ensures perfect ratio between fabric and resin (pre-preg and vacuum bagging vs simple hand lay-up).

...
Lukas,

absolutely on the kevlar, and that is why my the tank guards I bought are 75% kevlar/25% CF weave.

Since you seem to know composites, lemme ask ya: folks seem to not like polyester resins, but the information I have read from the manufacturers says that not all polyester resins, much like the kevlar and CF fabrics, ah - not all materials are created equal. There is crap epoxy and there is good epoxy, just like there is crap kevlar and there is ballistic kevlar... then there is CF with nanotubes

Anyways, there supposedly is crap polyester, and then there is some pretty damn good stuff. Just look at those fishing poles: fiberglass with polyester resin and you can bend the F outa them over and over again. Apparently the polyester resins can be designed for many applications. Also, I hear the surfboarders like polyester better than epoxy.

EH?
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Old 11-17-2006, 06:26 AM   #24
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As a disclaimer, I am not really an expert, just an amateur who has played around with it a bit for my racecar and motorcycle. I will however turn pro once I get a KTM Adv again and rebuild the whole things out of CF and Kevlar

From speaking with professionals and reading some books, there would not really be a reason why polyester still exists if it weren't for cost. It offers no real other advantages, maybe that it generally sets quicker (=cheaper) , is a bit easier to work with (=cheaper) and works with the inferior chopped strand mat (=cheaper).

For quality parts, you want to use fabric (even if its glass) and an epoxy resin. Overkill in some application - maybe, but always lighter and stronger.

Also, the European surfboard industry uses epoxy exclusively. Not sure why they would prefer polyester in the States, I guess its price. However polyester is not compatible with some types of foam cores (e.g. anything polystyrol-based), so I am sure that they use epoxy as well.
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Old 11-17-2006, 08:05 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LukasM
...
Also, the European surfboard industry uses epoxy exclusively. Not sure why they would prefer polyester in the States, I guess its price. However polyester is not compatible with some types of foam cores (e.g. anything polystyrol-based), so I am sure that they use epoxy as well.
Plenty about this on the web:
http://forum.hansensurf.com/epoxy-po...dab4826d89a0d4

Most say that poly resin gives a better feel, but check out "kiwi's" posts at that link. I might guess that the epoxy he is referencing could be an inferior formula, otherwise they wouldn't use it in the aerospace industry... but then again, many say that polyester and such can be very durable (i.e. old boats! old fishing rods! old surfboards!).

For our applications they are all probably just fine (if the better formulations); if you are building a plane, then look to commercial aerospace and follow their lead. For less strenuous applications I am thinking it is mostly opinion based upon an inferior formulation of one resin type or the other, and not on hard science. Probably also has much to do with how it is constructed (like you said earlier).
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Old 11-17-2006, 09:13 AM   #26
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Question Ever scratch it?

...and if so, did the clear Krylon touch up work? I scratched my Chris Barnes tank guards and would like to "fix the farkle" fast.

Fanks!

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Old 11-17-2006, 10:48 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpringOly
...and if so, did the clear Krylon touch up work? I scratched my Chris Barnes tank guards and would like to "fix the farkle" fast.

Fanks!

SpringOly
I haven't tried to touch up anything. I have the Chris Barnes guards too, but I have not mounted them yet. Others said the clear nail polish works too, but the lady of the house might be annoyed if it turns up missing...

This skidplate has been beaten on by rocks of various sizes thrown by the front tire, but never contacted the ground. The guard has held up well to rock hits even if there are marks; I will have to take a closer look to see if it still farkles...
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Old 11-17-2006, 12:41 PM   #28
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Clear nail polish..

..that farkles! I'll be sure to wear a plastic bag over my head and work close enough to get the full impact of the fumes! It'll kill the remaining recalintrant, practical brain cells in my head so I can then handily justify further farkeling!!

Sounds like I need to leave work right now!

Thanks!

SpringOly

I'm going to take my medicine now...
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Old 11-18-2006, 07:49 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meat popsicle
Plenty about this on the web:
http://forum.hansensurf.com/epoxy-po...dab4826d89a0d4

Most say that poly resin gives a better feel, but check out "kiwi's" posts at that link. I might guess that the epoxy he is referencing could be an inferior formula, otherwise they wouldn't use it in the aerospace industry... but then again, many say that polyester and such can be very durable (i.e. old boats! old fishing rods! old surfboards!).

For our applications they are all probably just fine (if the better formulations); if you are building a plane, then look to commercial aerospace and follow their lead. For less strenuous applications I am thinking it is mostly opinion based upon an inferior formulation of one resin type or the other, and not on hard science. Probably also has much to do with how it is constructed (like you said earlier).
Not sure about the whole "feel" thing. But even on that as you can see their opinions are all over the board. It looks to me like some of the CF/Epoxy boards feel very stiff (as they should) and might not be the perfect for the surfing application.

As you said, both will work for our application. But as far as sheer strength/stiffness/weight go, you won't be able to beat a CF/Kevlar/epoxy laminate. Thats my story and I am sticking to it

I am thinking of getting an EXC to go trashing around on while I am waiting for the 690 Adventure to come out, just so I can test whether a Kevlar bash plate would hold up while still being significantly lighter (and cheaper) than the aluminum ones currently availble.....
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Old 05-22-2007, 06:28 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LukasM
Not sure about the whole "feel" thing. But even on that as you can see their opinions are all over the board. It looks to me like some of the CF/Epoxy boards feel very stiff (as they should) and might not be the perfect for the surfing application.

As you said, both will work for our application. But as far as sheer strength/stiffness/weight go, you won't be able to beat a CF/Kevlar/epoxy laminate. Thats my story and I am sticking to it

I am thinking of getting an EXC to go trashing around on while I am waiting for the 690 Adventure to come out, just so I can test whether a Kevlar bash plate would hold up while still being significantly lighter (and cheaper) than the aluminum ones currently availble.....
Lukas, et al, the "old style" urethane foam blanks have a different feel than the so-called "modern" polystyrene blanks. Today there are also lots of surfboards made in Thailand, China, and Slovenia using windsurfer technology.

Polyester resin melts polystyrene blanks. They must use epoxy.

Polystyrene boards (machine & hand made) are more buoyant (not always good) and have a flex characteristic that is more dampened than the springy feel of the urethane blanks. Some say they feel dead, but a lot can be done wit stringer size, material, etc...

I now ride a Surftech longboard, that is stronger & more buoyant than my old Clark Ultralight (urethane) blank board of near identical design. This is probably an OK thing, as I now live in Texas, home to the most enthusiastic surfers and the worst waves. I also weigh a lot more than my days as a Rincon Local. If I weighed less, and had better waves, the additional buoyancy would give the board a corky feel, giving bottom turns and cutbacks an uneven feel in powerful surf. Here in our mushy wind-waves, and surfing tanker wakes on the bay, buoyancy is all good. Sorry for the length.

When are we getting cheap, mass produced Rallye skidplates in Carbon/kevlar? Or even s glass? Might need to tool up a mold as a Summer project.

Cheers
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