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Old 09-15-2013, 07:48 AM   #151
BOUNTY HUNTER
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R1200CL Stick Coil Failure

FYI: I just encountered this in the shop yesterday. The R1200CL uses a different coil than any other BMW motorcycle. There are none of these coils in the US and there are only 2 in Germany which are headed to Bob's BMW for a different customer. Thanks to hackyMoto I might be able to get this customer back on the road before winter!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKuhQx2NYgs
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Old 09-15-2013, 08:02 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by BOUNTY HUNTER View Post
FYI: I just encountered this in the shop yesterday. The R1200CL uses a different coil than any other BMW motorcycle. There are none of these coils in the US and there are only 2 in Germany which are headed to Bob's BMW for a different customer. Thanks to hackyMoto I might be able to get this customer back on the road before winter!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKuhQx2NYgs
I wish they would all die that way. Most of them look fine, and even produce a spark when checked outside the head and yet fail when in the chamber under load. I'm sure thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours have been spent trying to find out why the bike is running crappy when it is a stick coil all along. BMW should provide a feedback for these that produces an error code on a GS-911. Kind of important! Instead they are concerned about our parking lamp going out ,so we get a message for that . LOL
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Old 09-15-2013, 02:28 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by BOUNTY HUNTER View Post
FYI: I just encountered this in the shop yesterday. The R1200CL uses a different coil than any other BMW motorcycle. There are none of these coils in the US and there are only 2 in Germany which are headed to Bob's BMW for a different customer. Thanks to hackyMoto I might be able to get this customer back on the road before winter!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKuhQx2NYgs
Give these guy's a try, they might be able to help http://www.euromotoelectrics.com
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Old 09-15-2013, 04:39 PM   #154
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Thanks but the R1200CL stick coils are not listed. The R1200CL uses oddball stick coils.
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Old 09-25-2013, 01:24 PM   #155
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Has anyone cut open their bad stick coils recently? At $35/ea for the coil pack pigtails from BMW, I'm wondering if maybe the end of the coil pack can be cut off carefully and turned into a pigtail. One of my coil packs is still good, so I don't want to cut into it if I'm wasting my time.
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Old 09-26-2013, 07:05 PM   #156
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Wicked

Another proud owner of Ford cool packs. Idled like a Harley and lacked power above 4,000 RPMS. Now it idles and pulls like new. Such an improvement and at a huge savings.
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Old 09-26-2013, 07:26 PM   #157
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Originally Posted by GP1200 View Post
I wish they would all die that way. Most of them look fine, and even produce a spark when checked outside the head and yet fail when in the chamber under load. I'm sure thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours have been spent trying to find out why the bike is running crappy when it is a stick coil all along. BMW should provide a feedback for these that produces an error code on a GS-911. Kind of important! Instead they are concerned about our parking lamp going out ,so we get a message for that . LOL
You couldn't be more right. I spent a month of mornings going step by step through my 2004 R1150. The only symptom, which I guess I caught early, was a sluggish first start of the day for the first twenty seconds.

But after I replaced both stick coils yesterday my 1100 RPM idle jumped to 1350. So those old coils were weak.
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Old 09-27-2013, 11:30 AM   #158
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Here's some interesting data showing Dwell Time for R1150 Single-Spark, R1150 Dual-Spark and R1200 (Dual Spark Four Stick Coils).

This might help those who are thinking about using either non-BMW sticks mounted outside the cylinder head, or who are considering other coils. This data comes from GS-911s. On the R1200 it reports dwell time directly, for the 1150s I used dwell angle, ignition angle and RPM data to calculate dwell time.

The key data looks like this. Dwell Time is how long in milliseconds that the coil is energized before firing the spark plug.

R1200 (BMSK)Dwell Times
At start: 6 mS
All other RPMs: 2.2 mS

R1150 Dual-Spark Dwell Times for Stick Coils
At start: 3.5 mS
Cold Start Advance: 0.5 mS (very short, a surprise)
Warm Idle: 1.5 mS
Cruise: 0.6 mS
Accel: 0.6 - 0.8 mS
Decel: 1.8 mS

R1150 Single-Spark Dwell Times
At start: 14.4 mS
Cold Start Advance: 1.6 mS
Warm Idle: 3.0 mS
Cruise: 2.1 mS
Accel: 2.2 mS
Decel: 3.3 mS

Some important takeaways from this data:

--The Motronic MA 2.4 Dual Spark has a very short cruise Dwell Time. This says to me that if I replace the coil with something not selected by BMW, I have to be sure that it can charge sufficiently given the short Dwell.

--The Dual Spark idle Dwell Time is almost 3X the cruise Dwell. I wonder if cruise performance would improve with a longer dwell and therefor more spark energy.

--Deceleration on both R1150s gets a higher energy spark. It seems that is to make sure the enleaned mixture ignites.

--I believe that the Dwell Times for 1150 Dual Spark have been made as short as possible so that the Stick Coils are not overheated and damaged from long Dwell Times.

--The 1150 single spark coil should not be triggered by the dual-spark drivers sinces the times would be too short.

--A four-way coil might work on an R1150 dual-spark but you couldn't drive it from the stick coil trigger. The two-way coil trigger might work but you should confirm that the dwell times are sufficient and that the Motronic can drive the bigger coil.

--As with other things, it seems BMW did a better job with the BMSK. It has a real wallop for the first cold start pulse and a good long dwell for the sticks the rest of the time.

Has anyone considered CDI?

RB
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Old 09-27-2013, 12:12 PM   #159
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I think the question would be what was the stick coil's voltage on the primary side at the shortest dwell? It would be pretty easy to check with a scope. if the primary side is 12 volts and it reaches full voltage, I think you could reasonably infer that there would be full magnetic saturation of the primary... it's not like a magneto where there are two fields with a Lentz law effect in play. if so, then it's a moot point. if on the other hand the primaries are fed by capacitor then the dwell would be significant because of the rc time constant.


edit.... or for that matter, you could wrap some wire around the coil or even the plug lead itself and put the scope on that & see if the induced voltage changes with RPM. that would indicate whether or not the spark voltages change with the dwell, or how much they change. of course you would only be reading something in the mV range but it would be proportional to the output voltage since it's based on the same magnetic field. it was standard equipment in the days of piston powered airliners... that was part of the flight engineer's job to monitor the ignition system.

I guess if you really wanted to match aftermarket coils you would need to consider the Henry value of the coils, but geez.... they gotta be pretty close just to perform the same function. I was surprised by the low primary values.

Beezer screwed with this post 09-27-2013 at 12:58 PM
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Old 09-27-2013, 04:28 PM   #160
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I recently installed a set of Beru stick coils from Euro Motelectrics (no affiliation) & I was surprised that my 03 R1150GSA seems to idle smoother & run better also. But that could be me just wanting it to be that way.

For the $200 for a pair & 1yr warranty, I thought I'd give them a try.
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Old 10-04-2013, 04:44 PM   #161
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Originally Posted by bighopper View Post
I recently installed a set of Beru stick coils from Euro Motelectrics (no affiliation) & I was surprised that my 03 R1150GSA seems to idle smoother & run better also. But that could be me just wanting it to be that way.

For the $200 for a pair & 1yr warranty, I thought I'd give them a try.
Did the same on my 03 R1100S --- made it into a new bike I had one bad original coil and the other was intermittent causing a rubber band effect during acceleration. It is still a pain to start (think that has something to do with the air valve screws on the TBs). But mileage is up to a solid 42 around town just as when new. Before the change it varied from 32 to 36.

The biggest problem now is getting the Beru sticks on or off the plugs. Ended up buying the Wunderlich tool which is a bit more robust than the original plastic device.
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Old 10-04-2013, 07:12 PM   #162
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Did the same on my 03 R1100S --- made it into a new bike I had one bad original coil and the other was intermittent causing a rubber band effect during acceleration. It is still a pain to start (think that has something to do with the air valve screws on the TBs). But mileage is up to a solid 42 around town just as when new. Before the change it varied from 32 to 36.

The biggest problem now is getting the Beru sticks on or off the plugs. Ended up buying the Wunderlich tool which is a bit more robust than the original plastic device.
I found the Beru coils to be hard to say they were on the plugs as they don't snap on like the BMW units. I had the Wunderlich tool already...Always prepared .
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Old 10-04-2013, 09:21 PM   #163
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Roger_04,

what do you mean by trying a CDI?

Is the circuit within the motronic that charges the coil not a capacitive discharge type?
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Old 10-05-2013, 12:24 AM   #164
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Roger_04,

what do you mean by trying a CDI?

Is the circuit within the motronic that charges the coil not a capacitive discharge type?


Sometimes you just have to try and ride it... Techno picky eaters are not going to be happy until they realize that BMW only produced the 1150 twin plug for a couple of years for a reason... and that they stopped making them almost 10 years ago
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Old 10-05-2013, 01:13 AM   #165
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Sometimes you just have to try and ride it... Techno picky eaters are not going to be happy until they realize that BMW only produced the 1150 twin plug for a couple of years for a reason... and that they stopped making them almost 10 years ago
Well, they stopped producing them because they stopped making the 1150. And they continued to use the same main stick coil on the 1200 - what's your point?
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