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Old 04-28-2006, 03:11 PM   #16
Stephen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sakurama
Bump...

I just put about 1000 miles on the new 19" front and 17" rear and I have to say that KTM made a HUGE mistake by not making this the stock wheel size on the bike...
Interesting to hear that, Gregor, because while watching KTM develop this bike, I just assumed they'd put the 19/17 on to exploit all the oilhead tires out there, as Suzuki did with the V-strom. I would certainly expect that combo to work well on pavement; I've ridden oilheads and stroms on tar, and the wheels and tires sure weren't a problem, whereas I have felt the KTM's 21 seem a little, well, skinny from time to time.

Nevertheless, I have a little trouble with the comparisons presented here on advrider -- not that I don't appreciate them, indeed, I enjoy and cherish them. The problem I have is that folks take off the 21/18 Mich Deserts and put on 19/17 Tourance and say, "wow, they work on pavement a lot better," to which I can only say, "no shit." Same thing happens to all of us when we ditch those threadbare Scorpions and slap on a sharp-edged set of TKC's and say "damn, these things are hardly any worse on tar AT ALL!"

One more example, and what really got me started on this was my recent experience swapping bikes with Neduro. Our bikes felt really different, so different that we could hardly stop laughing when we pulled over to compare notes, but the only differences were his newish TKC on the front and his stiffer fork springs. His bike fell into turns like it wasn't gonna stop until it hit the ground; my bike felt like a freight train on rails.

I guess I'm just sayin' that there may be a lot of ways to change the feel of the bike. And I'd still love to have a second set of wheels in 19/17 for road work.
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Old 04-28-2006, 03:48 PM   #17
sakurama
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen
Nevertheless, I have a little trouble with the comparisons presented here on advrider -- not that I don't appreciate them, indeed, I enjoy and cherish them. The problem I have is that folks take off the 21/18 Mich Deserts and put on 19/17 Tourance and say, "wow, they work on pavement a lot better," to which I can only say, "no shit." Same thing happens to all of us when we ditch those threadbare Scorpions and slap on a sharp-edged set of TKC's and say "damn, these things are hardly any worse on tar AT ALL!"
Yeah, I know what you mean since just swapping out a cupped Scorpion will make a big difference. FWIW I'd ridden these same roads before on a Ducati ST2, a BMW R1100S, a BMW R1100GS and a KTM Duke II (and with the stock Scorpions on the stock wheels) and with the exception of the Duke II in the very tight stuff the 950 (17/19) was head and shoulders above them all. I've spent a long time road racing so I'm pretty sensitive to suspension set up and tires - this is a pretty wholesale character change and took the bike from being fun to being one of the best backroad bikes I've ridden. It rails like a super motard but it wheelies off the top of hills at 75mph like nothing else - I couldn't stop smiling for the whole ride. I would never consider taking the stock 950 to a track day but this bike would make a track day a real fun time.

I think the thing is to try it but not many have made the switch. Hopefully Clipper will give my bike a go and be able to give a good opinion.

Gregor
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Old 04-28-2006, 08:22 PM   #18
Doug Matson
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I really like the 17/19 sealed set Woody built. The bike is more stable and with the Tourance's on, the normal dirt road feels fine, even soft gravel felt ok. I checked the speedo today with the GPS. With the speedo on the 19" setting, a 40.1 (GPS) mile ride the odo is off 3 tenths 40.4 and the speed is 2 to 3 mph fast. One thing I really noticed compared to the 18/21 stock is the braking, it feels much better(even with good Scorpions on).
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Old 04-28-2006, 09:59 PM   #19
wsmc99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sakurama
Bump...

I just put about 1000 miles on the new 19" front and 17" rear and I have to say that KTM made a HUGE mistake by not making this the stock wheel size on the bike. I think they should offer the 21" and 18" wheels on the S as an offroad biased bike but on the street that size isn't as good as it could be.

I think the 17/19 combo is so much better since it puts a quicker steering and wider front tire on the pavement. The bike turns in quicker, transitions much faster and easier and feels more planted. There are also many more tires available for this size and it takes about an inch off the seat height.

I'll keep the set of wheels that Woody made for me that are beefed up in the 18/21 sizes for when I plan on doing some serious off roading but if I'm going to do any long trips I think the smaller wheels are much better suited. I'm thinking of putting a set of TKC 80's on the new rims and doing the 1-State Dual Sport coming up in May just to see what they're like off road but I did a few gravel roads on them and it wasn't bad. I'm running Avon Distanza's right now so that's a more street oriented tread but it wasn't bad.

I think the improvement of handling on pavement (where 80% of these bikes will spend 80% of their time) is more than worth the small trade in off road ability. If this bike had been tested with these wheels against a GS, Multistrada, Buell or V-Strom it wouldn't even be close. This is the perfect middle ground between motard 17's and the full offroad wheelsets and it makes the bike a real pleasure on the pavement.

I spent a lot of time on small twisty back roads with these wheels and I can't think of any full size bike that I've enjoyed flogging as much. It's a complete transformation.

Clipper - you'll have to try it to believe it.

Gregor

Are those the stock widths?
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Old 04-28-2006, 10:46 PM   #20
sakurama
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wsmc99
Are those the stock widths?
I went with the stock BMW GS sizes: 2.5 x 19 front and 4 x 17 rear which are close to the stock 950 widths - the stock front is 2.15 and the rear is the same at 4. I wanted to be able to take advantage of the wealth of tires that are available in those sizes. As mentioned also, the braking is pretty amazing even with only one (320mm) rotor. I thought I'd want to add another disk but it's more than enough.

Gregor
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Old 04-29-2006, 12:26 AM   #21
KTMax
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen
The problem I have is that folks take off the 21/18 Mich Deserts and put on 19/17 Tourance and say, "wow, they work on pavement a lot better," to which I can only say, "no shit."
Not entirely but I agree on what you mean. To find out if I was dealing with (mainly) a tire thing or a tire/wheelsize issue, I've fitted a Tourance on the front in 90/90-21. This was a clear improvement over the Scorpion on tar. Less flexing from the knobbies, more stability, more grip and more feedback (and almost 100mm wide when fitted).

But the improvement is knowhere near as huge as with 19/17" wheels (with Dunlop D607 radials in my case). As written here and in other threads, a complete transformation turning a 950 into an almost SM-like handling hooligan. Awesome.

For me, KTM's desire to stay 'true' to their die-hard off road heritage/image was taken one step to far with the ADV compromising the bikes qualities too much for 90% or it's owners (and potential buyers). The S bike on 21/18" skinnies and the regular bike on 19/17" would have been a much wiser choice IMO
.
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Old 04-29-2006, 05:42 AM   #22
FastEddieB
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Back on 4/4 I ordered a 17"/19" pair of wheels from Woody's.

Link here.

I got a call yesterday. First, there had been a delay getting the 17" rear Sun rim in gold (which I have my heart set on). Second, they send the rims out to have them drilled for the larger spokes - they said they were drilled "too deep" and so had strength concerns and had a new set of rims re-drilled.

Anyway, I'm about a week away from getting the wheels (I hope) and I'll report back on my impressions then.
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Old 04-29-2006, 07:37 AM   #23
Greg Minor
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I have a set of 17/19 excels rim wheels currently mounted with brand newTKC's. I never got to try the TKC's as I had my accident just before I was going to use them for DV Days in Jan. 05 I have a set of Anakees also. I agree that the on road improvement is high but I found the Anakees to seriously limited the off road ability, even on smooth dirt roads. It always seemed like I would discover a bitchen new dirt road on the days I had my 17/19 combo mounted. I decided the TKC might be the solution but it is still untested. If anyone wants to confirm this setup I will sell my wheels with both sets of tires Contact me off line
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Greg Minor screwed with this post 10-04-2007 at 07:22 PM
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Old 04-29-2006, 08:43 AM   #24
wsmc99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sakurama
I've spent a long time road racing so I'm pretty sensitive to suspension set up and tires
Gregor
Okay as a fellow road racer and 950 owner, Did you end up raising/dropping the forks for the 19/17 setup?
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Old 04-29-2006, 09:27 AM   #25
chasfactor
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Guys... i have the 17/19 woodys wheels and the Emig kit. I feel the bike turns in too quickly. Is the 20 degree offset the Emig kit provides causing this perhaps?

Any advise much apprecaited..

Chas
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Old 04-29-2006, 09:35 AM   #26
wsmc99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chasfactor
Guys... i have the 17/19 woodys wheels and the Emig kit. I feel the bike turns in too quickly. Is the 20 degree offset the Emig kit provides causing this perhaps?

Any advise much apprecaited..

Chas
Compared to what?
Try adding some front preload or dropping your front forks in the triples about 3mm at a time.
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Old 04-29-2006, 10:52 AM   #27
sakurama
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wsmc99
Okay as a fellow road racer and 950 owner, Did you end up raising/dropping the forks for the 19/17 setup?
When I rode the first 1000 miles completely stock I felt the front really lacked feel and tended to push in corners. I dropped the front about 5mm (raised the fork tubes) and that made a big difference - the front had bite. This even applied to dirt as back to back riding of another 950 showed.

So when I put the 17/19 combo on I didn't change it so I could see what it did knowing it would increase the rake a little and decrease the trail a little - both things that would quicken the steering. Since I like it so much right now I'm not inclined to raise the fork tubes.

The caveat though would be that I like a bike that falls easily into corners as I spent my road racing on 125 and 250 GP bikes. I've always found Ducatis to be a bit heavy steering and require a lot of push but trade that for stability of a freight train in the corner. I don't feel the bike is nervous at all though and I have my damper turned off and it's never exhibited any head shake at all.

Chas, you may want to raise the forks (drop the tubes) as this will give you some more trail which is more resistance to falling into a corner. I don't know what the Emig setup does but since it's off road oriented I'm guessing it increases trail - then again since it's part of a damper it may reduce it and let the damper deal with the stability. Try turning your damper up first and see what that does. It goes without saying that your tires are at the right pressure etc.

Gregor
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Old 04-30-2006, 12:15 AM   #28
KTMax
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Last week at the Dutch KTM Orange day I had an interesting talk with a technical guy from WP Suspension who turned out to be involved with the development of the 950 setup back in 01-02 (WP is a Dutch company owned by KTM).

I asked him about fitting heavier springs and/or reducing the air chamber to stiff'n things up a bit after fitting 19/17" wheels. He told me that KTM wanted to give the 950 the same calm & steady 'fly-by wire' feel in the bars as the GS. For this the 950 forks are lightly damped smoothing out as much ripples and jerks as possible. To avoid GS riders being put off by rattling and shaking handlebars. The 950 forks are the only WP forks with two bypass/damping holes (not sure what he said).

He said not to start mess'n with the springrates and air chamber right away. "Try these 4 steps first"; put the fork legs flush with the top yoke (already did that), wind up the spring preload to max (already did that too), add 4 or 5 clicks of compression damping (dang, did that too) and last but not least, close the rebound adjusters all the way up to max or one click before max, effectively close one of the two holes mentioned. "This will calm down the front end big time and give a much better feel & feedback". "You'll probably don't need to change anything else"...

Back home click-click-click-click-click-click... Wow, that is a big step forward! Well worth a try!
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Old 04-30-2006, 09:52 AM   #29
sakurama
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Hmm, that sounds like something to try. I was going to move to a heavier spring (I was bottoming over whoops and jumps) but then I decided that I'm an idiot to be riding this bike like that and behavior modification seemed a better way to deal with that problem. The new wheels keep me from doing really stupid things that the bike is capable of - more or less.

I'll try those settings and see what happens before I send the suspension out for a revalve. Thanks for the tip.

Gregor
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Old 10-04-2007, 01:46 PM   #30
Yellow Pig
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Quick question:

When swapping from 21/18 to 19/17 what gearing changes have you guys make on the sprocket and countersprocket, and were you able to keep the stock chain length?

I had a DRZ400 w/ dirt and SM wheels, but had to replace the chain when I swapped over and that made it a real pain in the a$$ to do.


Thanks Dan
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