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Old 03-11-2005, 08:07 AM   #16
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Go to bed... get up, find this sillyness. Loaded in the mix?... of course sillyness.

As I understand it, the '03 and later head has 32mm vs 30mm exhaust valves. KTM is not very good at providing detail on changes (one of the reasons I bought a head) so it may be safe to assume a cam timing change as well.
The 32mm valves appear to be a retrofit to older heads, although you still have the smaller ports and seats... a bit of an improvement due to the larger valve diameter circumfrence offset by the restriction of the smaller ports & seats.
What was the change in power output? I'll have to go and look at my old reference material... but I seem to recall a net gain of around 4 to 6 hp peak at the crank, which would jive with the Sommer data.
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Old 03-11-2005, 08:16 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by creeper
Go to bed... get up, find this sillyness. Loaded in the mix?... of course sillyness.

As I understand it, the '03 and later head has 32mm vs 30mm exhaust valves. KTM is not very good at providing detail on changes (one of the reasons I bought a head) so it may be safe to assume a cam timing change as well.
The 32mm valves appear to be a retrofit to older heads, although you still have the smaller ports and seats... a bit of an improvement due to the larger valve diameter circumfrence offset by the restriction of the smaller ports & seats.
What was the change in power output? I'll have to go and look at my old reference material... but I seem to recall a net gain of around 4 to 6 hp peak at the crank, which would jive with the Sommer data.
that would be a yes?

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Old 04-06-2005, 11:36 AM   #18
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Sommers "Red Head Special"

I had Sommers to the Special on my 2001 640 LC4. I insisted on before and after dyno runs for verification and the difference was almost 5 hp at peak. The only other work done between runs was an SXC silencer re-pack. I could definitely tell the difference.

Creep,
Have you looked into the cam timing yet? I had the cams indexed on a 2001 Ducati 996 and the 4 cams were off 7,10,10 and 12 degrees from stock. After being corrected with offset keys, the bike ran much smoother and pulled harder. Even the idle was smoother. I realize that with a SOHC engine an offset key would change both I and E lobes the same amount (and limit adjustablilty tremendously) but have you noticed any consistant error in LC4 cam timing?

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Old 04-06-2005, 12:08 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Badmunkie
I had Sommers to the Special on my 2001 640 LC4. I insisted on before and after dyno runs for verification and the difference was almost 5 hp at peak. The only other work done between runs was an SXC silencer re-pack. I could definitely tell the difference.

Creep,
Have you looked into the cam timing yet? I had the cams indexed on a 2001 Ducati 996 and the 4 cams were off 7,10,10 and 12 degrees from stock. After being corrected with offset keys, the bike ran much smoother and pulled harder. Even the idle was smoother. I realize that with a SOHC engine an offset key would change both I and E lobes the same amount (and limit adjustablilty tremendously) but have you noticed any consistant error in LC4 cam timing?

'munkie
I haven't seen a Sommer "Red Head" in person. I would love to have one for a day to measure what they did, and more importantly what they didn't do.

You didn't mention if the cams were off plus or minus on the Duck, still 12 degrees is a tremendous variance!
On a single cam KTM, I suppose one could advance or retard the cam timing by as much as 3 or maybe 4 degrees (valve to piston clearence might be an issue)... it's highly unlikely you would see a substantial increase in peak performance unless the timing was off in the first place, but you certainly would notice a "shift" in that peak by as much as 400 or 500 RPM up or down the range.
Generally, DOHC bikes are more in a position to take advantage of cam timing shifts to improve or alter performance.

Interesting post BM

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Old 04-06-2005, 12:53 PM   #20
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I'm thinking RIDEGUY (here and over on ktmtalk) has an 02 with the newer hi-flow head. His 02 had some trouble so he got a new head under warranty (I believe if memory serves).
He reported a little better performance.
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Old 04-06-2005, 01:06 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Jeff620RXC
I'm thinking RIDEGUY (here and over on ktmtalk) has an 02 with the newer hi-flow head. His 02 had some trouble so he got a new head under warranty (I believe if memory serves).
He reported a little better performance.
Wonder if he re-jetted for the head?
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Old 04-08-2005, 10:29 AM   #22
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So Creep, now you have had a look at it, how many miles between valve jobs do you think, I have heard 70k miles is realistic, maybe more, but experience has told me that 50k miles is reality on a well made motor, i.e. my old DR800.

I intend to be racking the miles on the Adv. just planned a little 4k miler for the summer, two weeks only, but will be a good metal tester, will be doing U.K., France, Germany, Austria, Hungary, Austria, Switzerland, France, U.K.
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Old 04-08-2005, 10:40 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buckster
I intend to be racking the miles on the Adv. just planned a little 4k miler for the summer, two weeks only, but will be a good metal tester, will be doing U.K., France, Germany, Austria, Hungary, Austria, Switzerland, France, U.K.
Hmm... Stopping to smell the roses are we??
Man, You can spend days in Switzerland just doing the passes, Furka, Grimsel, St Gotard, Oberalp, Splugen... Then turn around and and do 'em backwards...
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Old 04-08-2005, 10:46 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buckster
So Creep, now you have had a look at it, how many miles between valve jobs do you think, I have heard 70k miles is realistic, maybe more, but experience has told me that 50k miles is reality on a well made motor, i.e. my old DR800.

I intend to be racking the miles on the Adv. just planned a little 4k miler for the summer, two weeks only, but will be a good metal tester, will be doing U.K., France, Germany, Austria, Hungary, Austria, Switzerland, France, U.K.
KTM uses pretty good quality parts in the valvetrain. I would bet that with decent maintinance and not a lot of WFO type riding you could get 50K and still have 70-80% of the original "as new" performance. 70K on anything within the same performance levels as the LC4, and abused as much as we're known to abuse them... that would be one tired engine.

Of course, there are always exceptions to the rules. Some have a knack for blowing anything to kingdom come in short order, and others can milk 100K out of even a relatively high strung motor. Use and abuse my friend.

Sounds like a nice big sceenic loop around the European Continent... enjoy!
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Old 04-08-2005, 11:07 AM   #25
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the one feller I think has the mileage records for the LC4 around here is Jerome and he said long ago that he found the LC4s valve's dont move around too much unless you run above 6K rpm - for extended periods of time.

I would think that would translate into longevity right? If the valves are being pushed hard enough to move them outa spec then by staying under 6K as much as possible should equal less stress on the engine or a slower rate of wear?

Just my fitty cent. I plan on sending my head to creeper every 10K. But first I have to find the money...
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Old 04-08-2005, 01:22 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meat popsicle
the one feller I think has the mileage records for the LC4 around here is Jerome and he said long ago that he found the LC4s valve's dont move around too much unless you run above 6K rpm - for extended periods of time.

I would think that would translate into longevity right? If the valves are being pushed hard enough to move them outa spec then by staying under 6K as much as possible should equal less stress on the engine or a slower rate of wear?

Just my fitty cent. I plan on sending my head to creeper every 10K. But first I have to find the money...
Look under the matress... that's where I keep all my wife's... I mean my money.
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Old 05-03-2005, 04:50 PM   #27
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One LC4 head done... one to go

I've finally finished the new '05 head... the used '03 head should be done by the end of the week.
I would have had it finished as well, but decided that the exhaust valves, after looking at them thru a loupe, were a little too pitted so I opted to replace them with new... and of course, one exhaust valve in the lot I ordered was backordered.

The '05 head actually took longer to complete than the '03 head. The factory blueprinting work was so course and inconsistent that it was extra work to clean up. It's mostly cosmetic stuff, but I just couldn't let it go out the door looking so nasty with my name on it.

The ports "as delivered" are pretty good as far as basic shape goes. The greatest interuptions are near the valve seats. There are also a number of small rough spots from the casting itself... all thru both ports.
In some instances, there are "low spots" that can't be blended very well without enlarging the port... so they remain "low spots" with a bit nicer finish.

As I’ve said before, I do not have a flow bench… but based on past experience I would estimate an average flow improvement of approximately 7% on the intake and 5% on the exhaust. Not dramatic, but a solid gain that should be noticeable SOTP.

The seats cut very nicely with minimal runout. The combustion chamber, which was the most roughly finished part of the head, was a bitch to clean up due to the proximity of the valve seats and the fact that I didn't want to remove any more material than absolutely necessary. The word of the day… when doing any kind of port and combustion chamber work is "Restraint". Taking metal out is easy, putting it back... not so easy.

Anyway... rather than post pics I'll just put a link here to smugmug... see page two.
I'll be posting it up for sale or exchange in Vendor Forum with the particulars in a while.
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Old 05-04-2005, 07:57 AM   #28
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That head turned out great. Looks like the work was done by a true professional!

Did Phil call you? If I'm not mistaken, the BO'd valve came in yesterday.
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Old 05-04-2005, 08:10 AM   #29
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That head turned out great. Looks like the work was done by a true professional!

Did Phil call you? If I'm not mistaken, the BO'd valve came in yesterday.
Thanks Dirt ... These heads should perform well and last a long time. I went minimum spec of .045" and .050" respectivly on the intake and exhuast with nice crisp 15 and 60 degree relief angles. Surprisingly, the used head had less stem protrusion, by about a 0.8mm, than the new one... weird huh?

Nope haven't heard from NFP... chances are he just dropped it in the mail, in which case the '03 SM head will be done before the week is out as it's just a matter of assembly when the valve shows... assuming it has in spec runout.
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Old 05-04-2005, 11:52 AM   #30
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Handsome headwork there Creep...

But aren't you supposed to leave dychem and scribe marks all over it so it looks like you've been REALLY busy?
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