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Old 09-02-2011, 11:50 AM   #31
Flanny
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Old 09-02-2011, 07:42 PM   #32
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The blog was mentioned in here a year or so back and I've been following it with much interest since then.

Good to see it on here where more people will be able to enjoy it, so thanks for taking the time to post for our entertainment pleasure.
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Old 09-02-2011, 08:59 PM   #33
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still going

Thanks for those shots Gregor, you always manage to show your subjects in the best light. Those shots were all of the MK2 bike, a few years into the project. The first design was christened the 'MK1'. I'm sort of embarrassed to post these photos after seeing yours, but here goes. To lessen the shock I'll start with one of yours. This was visually my favorite version of the bike, TEAM INCOMPLETE in your face!!!!! Yes, were a the amateurs with a 3 color PPG high gloss paint jobs with 3' decal on 6 racebikes. But boy was it fun.....








then sneak in a shot of mine without bodywork.



The MK1 was trellis-like and a lot bigger overall, mostly being down to me being shy about how crowded I should make things.

I was in extreme mode with this first bike, nearly zero degree rake angle, inside out front brake, etc. The bike worked really well but just felt a bit too big overall. It was a good testbed for evaluating front control arm bearings and the latest Moto2 bike's design is a partial throwback to this bike. The inside out front brake looked cool but in the long run it is hard to beat the feel and progressiveness of a good set of Brembos.

This bike had a charmed existance, starting with the obligitory all night drive through to Daytona for it's maiden voyage (boy that was dumb) with the attendant all-nighter at the local hotel and finish welding in the school bus machine shop that used to be a fixture at Daytona. After all that never failed or threw its rider off. Without a reason at least.



In the end I got to finish one of my races and was not last.



In retrospect it was a complete success. Oh, and never test a new bike at Daytona.

You may ask why did I use a popular dirttrack engine to build a roadrace bike around? Many did and the answer is simple, in the US if you want to race a bike with a custom chassis and suspension it has to be either an open class bike (not quite yet, thank you) or a single cylinder, which due to their limited power production are allowed unlimited modifications. OK, maybe I did get a bit carried away with the 'unlimited modifications' part. This bike started before the new 4 stroke MX bikes were around so the Rotax 640 was regarded as a good reliable engine. The lower power output also made me focus on the whole point of the journey: to test an alternate suspension design.

I ran this bike, doing revisions to front and rear end geometry, for 2-3 years in addition to a Honda RS125 GP bike. After learning all that could be from this first go, I decided a complete redesign was in order. I had two main goals- mass centralization and size reduction. Both were achieved.

Although the MK2 bike looks completely different, the chassis parameters are is very similar to the original MK1. Instead of making a trellis because it was cool and Ducati did it, I tried to make the most efficient use of material as possible. I put tubes where the loads were being transmitted between the pivot points and not much else. Since those pivot locations were the output of a set of mathematical equations, the result was very simple and not really up for debate:



and the completed bike was noticeably more compact and centralized.



The bike was immediately faster and in every way a more refined package. The first bike was good but this one really started to show a high level of detail and finish. I rode it for a year or so and when I couldn't go any faster and couldn't make any parts to help, recruiting a faster rider became a priority.

Todd Puckett fit the bill perfectly. A MX racer as a child he was fast, smooth, and possessed with a great sense of feel. His feedback improved the bike setup immensely but that will have to wait for another post maybe tomorrow.
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CosentinoEngineering screwed with this post 09-02-2011 at 09:05 PM
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Old 09-03-2011, 11:02 AM   #34
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Those are sexy!

Did the exhaust pointing at the rear tire cause any issues with the tire overheating?
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Old 09-03-2011, 12:31 PM   #35
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Thanks

Exhaust outlet was never a problem with the tire. I think that by the time the exhaust gas is at the outlet it isn't more than 200 degrees or so and not too concentrated. That underseat exhaust was one of the issues with the overall bike design I needed to correct but not because of tire heating. It was a light bike but just positioned too high. You can see the how the MK2 is noticeably lower and it feels much more flickable as a result.
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Old 09-03-2011, 12:55 PM   #36
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somehow, WOW! just dosen't cut it.
inspirational!
i am in the process of getting a degree in engineering, so i can do things my way.
thank you for sharing and inspiring.

noam
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Old 09-03-2011, 01:16 PM   #37
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Very cool! Maybe it's an engineer thing, but I love the "from scratch" approach - it's a dream of mine to do the same. In the meantime I'll live vicariously through Chris...
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Old 09-03-2011, 01:29 PM   #38
Z50R
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Originally Posted by Mr. Vintage View Post
Very cool! Maybe it's an engineer thing, but I love the "from scratch" approach - it's a dream of mine to do the same. In the meantime I'll live vicariously through Chris...

I agree. With the opening posts and none of this background it kinda seemed like a just out of school/I got a hold of a copy of SolidWorks kind of hack job but with all this background I am highly impressed!

A question about the original modeling that was shown on the first post: Why are the relief cuts on the fork on the outside? Would it be advantageous aerodynamically to move them against the spinning wheel and leave the outside edge clean?
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Old 09-03-2011, 04:09 PM   #39
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[QUOTE=sakurama;16770519]Hey there papaduc - I see we're now neighbors! I just moved from NYC a few weeks ago and am living just up the road in Tigard.

Very nice photos of the previous projects.

Welcome to the Forest...
Get it? Not the jungle, get it? New York...it's a jungle out there??? Get it?
OK, never mind but welcome anyway.
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Old 09-03-2011, 09:30 PM   #40
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fork leg cuts

For now they look nice on the outside! The fairing is not yet done and they may be covered but why would the spinning wheel want to see the high drag area? For now I'm not worrying so much about aero as getting a sweet looking bike. We can worry about aero once we're at the track with a sorted chassis.
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Old 09-04-2011, 04:25 AM   #41
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For now they look nice on the outside! The fairing is not yet done and they may be covered but why would the spinning wheel want to see the high drag area? For now I'm not worrying so much about aero as getting a sweet looking bike. We can worry about aero once we're at the track with a sorted chassis.
You have more experience than I but I figured that no matter what you do the inside of the fork will be in turbulent flow where there is a decent chance the the outside will still be laminar. If you are putting a fairing over the fork none of this matters.
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Old 09-05-2011, 12:18 PM   #42
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Chris, good to see you posting here.

Al
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Old 09-05-2011, 12:31 PM   #43
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small mc world

Alan,

Howdy. I guess I'm not surprised to see you on here too. Definitely a similar crowd to the chassis design list.
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Old 09-05-2011, 12:56 PM   #44
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Out with the slow, in with the fast.

First off, happy Labor Day, hope you are all doing some fun riding!

The last post ended on a high note, the bike was working well and no parts were breaking, yet I couldn't manage to drop my laptimes any further. I did have a parallel control experiment going on in that I was racing a box-stock 2004 Honda RS125 at the same time. Interestingly enough, my 125 lap times were at the same level as my single times. When I upgraded the RS125 to a TZ250 my lap times still did not show any improvements. Hmmmmm.

Taking the hint the universe was yelling at me I decided to try to find a faster rider who would be interested in a unique project. My close circle provided the answer in the form of Todd Puckett. I'd like to be able to post his facebook address or ADV username, or any list he posts too but unfortunately Todd wisely chooses not to participate in this experiment we are calling social media. He is truly a rarity these days in more ways than one. Todd was another Team Incomplete member who had a great run on 125s, getting a 2nd overall for the season in the competitive LRRS series and a regular podium finisher in cutthroat USGPRU events. On his clapped out RS125 Todd was regularly dicing with the fast 14-15 year olds who were on brand new machinery, definitely an achievement.

After a few seasons riding the same bike Todd was up for a change and willingly jumped on board to help develop the bike. Also, having a rider to do the riding duties freed me up to pay attention to all the tasks being neglected when I was the combined rider/wrench. After riding the nearly indestructible 2 stroke GP bikes for years I don't think Todd or I was quite ready for the fragility of a highly modified 4 stroke big single in the hands of a fast rider. The first months of his riding resulted in quickly decreasing laptimes married to quickly disintergrating engines! I looked for complex reasons behind the failures but the simple fact was that he was riding the bike much harder and faster than I was and subsequently loading the engine way past what I was able to do. Speed costs, how fast do you want to go? Damn fast.

Here's a shot of Todd on the air-cooled engine getting 52+ degrees of lean.



After backing off the tune a bit for longer life Todd got a good feel for the chassis and started being competitive with the modified Buell, SV650, and Ducati 1000 twins in the bump class. His split times in the tighter sections were always quicker than the bigger bikes but the advantage was completely lost once they got onto the straight. There is a lot of truth in the old racing adage 'there's no replacement for displacement.' Knowing a few more Hp would go a long way I looked for ways to bump engine output.

That is the road that led to more power and more spending but it has to wait for another post as I've gotta run now and make some parts for Kenny.
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Old 09-05-2011, 07:12 PM   #45
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Chances are if you raced on the east coast during 2002-2008 you've seen/tech'ed/raced one version of the bike or another. I've met many people in the paddock who were stopping asking the same question with various punctuation: What is that?, What is that! and sometimes WHAT IS THAT?!?!?!?! I even have had the honor on several occasions of tech inspectors having to call for backup.

I feel bad that we have not been as present at the track these past couple of years as we'd like but this crappy economy does take its toll on such a tightly funded project like this. Once things start looking up and this new bike gets finished I hope to be making the rounds once again.
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