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Old 09-05-2011, 05:50 PM   #16
Bill Harris
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Here is that Thread of Woe on crank-blocking:

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=583894
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Old 09-05-2011, 06:34 PM   #17
Wirespokes
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If the flywheel is snugged down and the crank turns, then you've dodged the bullet.

If the shim came loose, then jammed (getting bent in the process - they bend easily) and then magically somehow got back on the pins - there's no way the crank would spin!

So if the flywheel is snugged and the crank turns - then breathe a sigh of relief.
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Old 09-05-2011, 06:44 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by airheadDavey View Post
My mechanic may refuse further services since he was suppose to have left(quit) this shop a month ago.
This may be the best thing that ever happened to your airhead. :(

Changing a master-link timing chain is a bit persnickety but it isn't a struggle. Depending on how hard you whacked the front of the crank you may have damaged the internal thrust washer.

Best case is that you pull the right jug and see a) that the thrust washer hasn't dropped off the locating pins or b) it isn't damaged (difficult to see) but can be repositioned onto the pegs. Then you can tighten the flywheel bolts and confirm that the crank turns before putting the jug back on.

Good luck! (and get some manuals - I don't recall any manual suggesting that the flywheel bolts be removed to install a timing chain).
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Old 09-06-2011, 11:00 AM   #19
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Thanks for all the suggestions guys. I just got a quote of $600 from a very reputable BMW shop bringing the bike in at its current state and get everything done properly. This would be (best case) if all that is required is to take the timing chain back off, right jug off, and slip an undamaged thrust washer back in place and completely put together with flywheel on and timing set. It may be less if the washer is not dislodged.

I do plan on kepping this bike for a long time and know most say I should do this myself, but in this case I need to leave it to the pros. I dont have a place to do this extensive a job since I live in an apartment. If I had a garage and did not have to worry about being in someones way I would try.

I will be doing the clutch, trans, driveshaft ect.. myself since I can do that with my eyes closed.
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Old 09-06-2011, 06:23 PM   #20
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**update**

Ok guys I got the chance to look at the bike today. I took both spark plugs out and was able to turn the crank easily with the timing chain on. I did take the timing chain off and tried to push the crank back and it seemed to not move. I put the flywheel on and it is still not sitting flush. I am not sure where the problem could still be??

I guess this means the internal thrust washer has not fallen off so it should be less than the original quote of $600. But this will be my first time going to this new place so I hope they will be honest with me. It takes me a long time to gain trust in people with my vehicles.
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Old 09-06-2011, 06:38 PM   #21
disston
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So you see a gap between the flywheel and the rear of the crank? Did you leave out the spacer, part between the FW and crank?

Where do you see a gap? Please explain.

How tight have you tightened the flywheel?
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Old 09-06-2011, 07:19 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by airheadDavey View Post
I put the flywheel on and it is still not sitting flush. I am not sure where the problem could still be??

I guess this means the internal thrust washer has not fallen off...
With the timing chain off the only thing to keep the crank from returning to its correct position (where the crank sprocket is aligned with the cam sprocket and the flywheel can be properly seated) is a internal thrust washer that's fallen off of its pins. Obviously, you don't want to force anything by pushing on the crank or tightening the flywheel bolts because that could destroy the internal thrust washer and require crank removal.

The crank stops spinning when you tighten the flywheel bolts and a thrust washer off its pins is smashed between the case and the crank. If you haven't tightened the flywheel bolts the crank can still spin and the thrust washer may be damage free.

Quote:
But this will be my first time going to this new place so I hope they will be honest with me. It takes me a long time to gain trust in people with my vehicles.
You may want to check here to see if this shop has a decent reputation.

Keep up the good work.
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Old 09-07-2011, 05:12 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by disston View Post
So you see a gap between the flywheel and the rear of the crank? Did you leave out the spacer, part between the FW and crank?

Where do you see a gap? Please explain.

How tight have you tightened the flywheel?
I did not tighten the flywheel fearing damage. I only finger tightened the bolts.

The spacer is in place. I see the gap between the flywheel and the crank . Here is an example of how it is supposed to sit flush against the crank where the arrow is pointing. On my bike there is a gap there.



Quote:
Originally Posted by fishkens View Post
With the timing chain off the only thing to keep the crank from returning to its correct position (where the crank sprocket is aligned with the cam sprocket and the flywheel can be properly seated) is a internal thrust washer that's fallen off of its pins. Obviously, you don't want to force anything by pushing on the crank or tightening the flywheel bolts because that could destroy the internal thrust washer and require crank removal.

The crank stops spinning when you tighten the flywheel bolts and a thrust washer off its pins is smashed between the case and the crank. If you haven't tightened the flywheel bolts the crank can still spin and the thrust washer may be damage free.



You may want to check here to see if this shop has a decent reputation.

Keep up the good work.
Thanks. I will try but I think I royaly hosed myself yesterday as well. After I took the timing chain off yesterday I accidentally turned the crank putting the flywheel back on so now the timing marks are way off since ofcourse the cam did not turn.
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Old 09-07-2011, 08:21 AM   #24
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It is not a problem at this point that the marks of the cam and crank are not matched. We have to make sure that the thrust washer is in place before you tighten the flywheel. The other stuff will be easy. There are a couple of things that happen when working on machines, at all costs we want to not kill our machines when trying to fix them.

I don't know if removing the oil pan would work. Lets stick to the method proposed every time this comes up. You are not the first. You need to remove at least one of the cylinders. It is easy. It can be done quickly if you have the right tool(s). You need the header nut wrench to get the exhaust system off. Some will just take off one side. I always take the whole thing off. And then take the cylinder head off the right side. Next the cylinder comes off. Careful not to let piston drop because the connecting rod will ding the hole in the block. And after all this is off it may be best to remove the rod, need special rod bolt socket. Since you are trying to do a quicky, just one side, the right side, should be enough. Depending on how many miles on this bike we may want to do a little extra when putting it back together.

Once this is done, some can do this in 1/2 an hour, I can have the barrels off both sides in not much more than 1 hour, you can see if the washer is in place. This is the next thing that has to happen. Somebody has to look and see if the washer is in place. I'm beginning to think that you will find it in place and then you can torque the flywheel bolts.

You may be able to get by with out the rod bolt tool.

Since you report the gears on the front of the cam and crank seem even it looks good but I think at this point you should look. Nobody has mentioned what it cost to replace that washer yet, it's a lot more than the 600.

Do not bang on the crank or anything else with a block of wood or anything else. When the flywheel is ready to go back on it will be pulled into place by the bolts.
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Old 09-07-2011, 09:24 AM   #25
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To check the inner spacer you only need to remove the rh cylinder.

The quick 'n dirty way is to only remove the 4 nuts from the staybolts and remove head and cylinder as one assy.
Then, just before the pistonrings come out, you can remove the wristpin and remove the whole as one.

Take a look between the aft inner wall of the block and the crank, there you'll find the spacer.
With a little poking with a small screwdriver you can put it back on it's pins.

Then push the crank back, fit the flywheel with 2-3 bolts hand-tight and check for free motion and endfloat.

If satis, replace the 5 bolts and torque to specs.

Paul.
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Old 09-07-2011, 09:51 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulRS View Post
To check the inner spacer you only need to remove the rh cylinder.

The quick 'n dirty way is to only remove the 4 nuts from the staybolts and remove head and cylinder as one assy.
Then, just before the pistonrings come out, you can remove the wristpin and remove the whole as one.

Take a look between the aft inner wall of the block and the crank, there you'll find the spacer.
With a little poking with a small screwdriver you can put it back on it's pins.

Then push the crank back, fit the flywheel with 2-3 bolts hand-tight and check for free motion and endfloat.

If satis, replace the 5 bolts and torque to specs.

Paul.
I am waiting for a quote for "if the washer needs replacing" since there was already some forcing that took place and may have damaged it.
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Old 09-07-2011, 10:10 AM   #27
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If the washer is damaged, let your mech check if the locatorpins didn't shift aft.

They should stick out equal front and aft or else they stick proud of the spacer, damaging the bearing surface of either the crank or flywheel.

Any good airhead wrench knows this, but better save, then sorry.

Paul.
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Old 09-07-2011, 02:17 PM   #28
disston
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Davey, I wouldn't worry too much about getting an estimate on work that may, might, have to be done. They will give you a general idea but it's not a real estimate till they get the machine in their hands. If the thrust washer needs to be replaced this should be done by experienced Airhead mechanics. Lots of shops will tackle the job but it can be done best by someone with experience. You are not at the point where you have to turn this over to somebody else.

Removing the right cylinder is an easy job. You need the exhaust wrench and maybe the special socket for the connecting rod. These two tools are an important part of you Airhead service kit. After this cylinder is off you will know what the deal is. If the washer is in place still then torque the flywheel bolts and put it all back together.

There are a couple of options for removing the cylinder. Either follow the way I wrote about it or Paul's instructions that leave the head connected to the cylinder. His method saves some money because you don't have to buy the head gasket. There is another option, to leave the piston in the cylinder by removing the wrist pin. I like to remove the piston from the cylinder and I think it's easier and safer this way but many think the other way is better. There are many more experienced than I am at this so I will bow out at the point you have questions about the rest of this. I just wanted to encourage you to get the cylinder off one way or the other.

If you can do this then you probably won't need any more help. You are doing very good to get this far.
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Old 09-07-2011, 05:17 PM   #29
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**update** You'll never believe it

Well I have worked things out with my current mechanic and we came to an understanding. I have had this conversation with him before and was mainly due to communication. How he left things on Saturday(refusing to take the chain off/making a rig to press the crank back into place) I was afraid there was going to be some serious costly damage caused here especially after what you guys told me the problem was and I needed to protect that. This time he realized how serious I was when he showed up today at the shop and all my parts were gone. I had taken them home last night.

I told him that I had researched and the internal thrust washer had fallen off its pegs and how to go about fixing this. He owns a BMW and has worked on many of them and done it all except take a crank out of one. After I explained to him he said "lets drop the oil pan, I might be able to get it from there". The bike was on a lift and we put a couple 2x4 blocks under the rear wheel so we could see due to the height. After dropping the oil pan he was able to see the washer and confirmed that it had fallen down off the pegs. He pushed the crank forward to give slack so he could rotate the washer and inspect for damage, which it was not, AND GOT IT BACK ON THE PEGS EASILY with a couple pieces of wire! The crank now has now freed up and the flywheel is seated flush. I definitely dodged a bullet here and he saved me the hassle of pulling off a jug.

Hopefully now that things are settled we can get this bike back on the road for the best riding of the season.
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Old 09-07-2011, 05:47 PM   #30
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Sweeee eeeeeet. Congrats on that. You dodged quite a financial bullet and got some DIY satisfaction as well as some airhead knowledge out of the deal to boot. The way I see it you came out ahead.
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