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Old 04-21-2013, 05:10 AM   #8371
Albie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrtSqtr View Post
May be we should start a new thread titled SHOW ME YOUR BURN....lol
ive got one on my right arm...lol your not alone.
Hell, after a couple of those burns and a few gear melts, I figure most people get rid of that POS stock can.
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Old 04-21-2013, 10:22 AM   #8372
Roadracer_Al
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davidmnz View Post
I tested for sparks the same way you did. Got a nice, fat, bright spark so I figured the plug should be good enough to get the engine started. Maybe my reasoning is flawed but I figure if the rest of the ignition system is good then a plug that sparks outside the cylinder should spark under pressure in the cylinder.
There is an actual spark tester tool -- looks basically like a spark plug with no ground bar -- it jumps from the electrode to the housing, a bit under 3/8" -- and a small spring clamp to attach it to ground.

The dielectric (insulating) property of any gas increases with pressure -- there is more "stuff" packed into a smaller area, so more electrical resistance is created. That's why just testing with a normal sparkplug doesn't give 100% iron-clad proof that the ignition system is working right.
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Old 04-21-2013, 01:09 PM   #8373
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+1 on what RR-Al said. Piston aircraft engines have notoriously weak sparks because of their magneto driven ignition systems. Takes a number of crafty solutions to make them work well: Special multi-pronged surface gap spark plugs, impulse couplings for starting, dual plugs in each cylinder, etc. Serious aircraft mechanics use pressurized spark plug testors to simulate the conditions the plug actually sees in operation. Often they spark well enough in the open air (but not much---they don't spark very brightly no matter what) but then not at all under pressure. Automotive/motorcycle plugs do much better because of the stronger ignition systems they employ, but they can still suffer from poor/no spark under pressure. $2,345 U.S. for a Champion pressure tester. And you thought motorcycle "stuff" was expensive...

Just sayin'...
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Old 04-21-2013, 03:07 PM   #8374
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davidmnz View Post
I tested for sparks the same way you did. Got a nice, fat, bright spark so I figured the plug should be good enough to get the engine started. Maybe my reasoning is flawed but I figure if the rest of the ignition system is good then a plug that sparks outside the cylinder should spark under pressure in the cylinder. But if something else is degraded then a slightly fouled plug might not fire.

Anyway, why should the plug be fouled by attempted starts after sitting for a while? Oil fouling in two strokes I can understand but I can't see why a four stroke should foul plugs unless mixture is way too rich. I've never had this kind of problem before and it's not the first time I've left a bike unused for weeks or even months. My TL1000S had a rather crude EFI system but would start even when the battery was nearly flat. I flattened the battery on my CBR1000RR once but it started OK after recharging the battery overnight. It's been decades since I've had to change a plug to get a bike running.

Experts please feel free to trash my argument...

Tomorrow I intend to try jump starting the bike off my car battery. I will report back with results.
Sounds like you've covered most everything so far. Good voltage/ cranking speed, fuel pressure, injector pulse, spark, airfow...

Have you tested the fuel? 6 weeks shouldn't be too long for fuel to go bad, but it may have been old or contaminated to begin with. Just something to double check. Take a sample in a clear bottle. Smell it and look at it up to the light. Then light a small amount on fire on the ground to make sure it ignites. You could always give it a quick spray of carb cleaner or starting fluid to make sure as well.

Does it sound like it has compression? Maybe an actual compression test may be needed to verify.
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Old 04-21-2013, 05:15 PM   #8375
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Update on electrical problem. Removed the easiest wiring covers around the battery area and coming from the fuse box to check for damage. Nothing. Next step would be to start unwrapping more of the loom which would get painful. Since it is possible that my instrument panel took a dump, have ordered a new one to check. Expensive troubleshooting but preferable to tearing apart more of the wiring loom and find nothing is wrong. If new instrument panel also does not work then will have to start looking for the wiring fault. As a said I get a 10 volt bleed across fuse one when ignition is off. This goes away when I disconnect one of the three connections going into the instrument panel. So either something on the circuit board on in the panel is bad or there is something bad downstream of the panel on a return wire and connecting those wires completes the(faulty) circuit. I also took the panel apart and everything looks like new. Nice and clean. So nothing obviously wrong.
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Old 04-21-2013, 05:37 PM   #8376
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Good news: It starts. Bad news: Something marginal in ignition

Well jumping it off the car finally did it. Had to start the car to get volts above 13V. And it took a bit of throttle I suppose because it was flooded from previous failed attempts. First try jumping off the car battery failed because I had a bad earth connection on the bike end of the jumper cable. The battery box is apparently not well earthed. So I got a good earth on the exhaust but it still wouldn't start until the car's alternator was helping to boost volts.

BTW once it started the battery voltage was around 14.5V so the alternator and RR are good.

My strongest suspect is the battery. I suspect this because what else would degrade in the ignition system with the bike just sitting? I can't see it being a coil or HT lead or earthing problem because those kinds of things should have shown up earlier as intermittent starting/running problems.

So the bad news is it seems to me this bike needs a good battery capable of holding over 12V (maybe more) under starting load. :( So I need a new battery then I'll have to wire up a plug/socket for a battery tender because it's too much of a pain to lift the seat and battery bracket every time I park it. Probably need regular battery replacement to be sure of starting when I go on trips away from home.
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Old 04-21-2013, 05:49 PM   #8377
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roadracer_Al View Post
There is an actual spark tester tool -- looks basically like a spark plug with no ground bar -- it jumps from the electrode to the housing, a bit under 3/8" -- and a small spring clamp to attach it to ground.

The dielectric (insulating) property of any gas increases with pressure -- there is more "stuff" packed into a smaller area, so more electrical resistance is created. That's why just testing with a normal sparkplug doesn't give 100% iron-clad proof that the ignition system is working right.
Agreed. Actually used a cheap spark/ignition tester many years ago. I believe that the root cause of poor spark is usually not the plug itself. I remember modifying my flatmate's 6V VW with an auxiliary starting battery to keep the ignition volts up when the starter was cranking. Amazing the difference in how it started before and after the mod. Also I learned a trick starting old cars/bikes with bad batteries: They will often fire just as you release the key. What happens is the starter load drags the battery voltage down too low for the spark to fire. But if the engine will spin it sometimes has enough momentum to keep spinning just long enough for the battery volts to recover enough to generate a spark.
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Old 04-21-2013, 06:59 PM   #8378
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davidmnz View Post
Well jumping it off the car finally did it. Had to start the car to get volts above 13V. And it took a bit of throttle I suppose because it was flooded from previous failed attempts. First try jumping off the car battery failed because I had a bad earth connection on the bike end of the jumper cable. The battery box is apparently not well earthed. So I got a good earth on the exhaust but it still wouldn't start until the car's alternator was helping to boost volts.

BTW once it started the battery voltage was around 14.5V so the alternator and RR are good.

My strongest suspect is the battery. I suspect this because what else would degrade in the ignition system with the bike just sitting? I can't see it being a coil or HT lead or earthing problem because those kinds of things should have shown up earlier as intermittent starting/running problems.

So the bad news is it seems to me this bike needs a good battery capable of holding over 12V (maybe more) under starting load. :( So I need a new battery then I'll have to wire up a plug/socket for a battery tender because it's too much of a pain to lift the seat and battery bracket every time I park it. Probably need regular battery replacement to be sure of starting when I go on trips away from home.
Well, my battery took a shit today. Stopped and started it a dozen times throughout the morning. First time we stopped after lunch I hit the starter button and nothing, not a grunt, not a click, NADA. The headlight was on and SEEMED OK, but I hit the horn and just croaked.

Luckily, I happened to be stopped in front of a house and the owner offered up his battery charger. I tossed it on for 15 minutes and then tried the starter and boom, got it running. Made a bee line to the house. Got in the garage and killed it, then hit the starter and nothing again. Guess I have a reason to pick up a new Shorai or Antigravity battery.
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Old 04-21-2013, 07:14 PM   #8379
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Where are the pics of this bike loaded with gear? Am I in the wrong spot I am looking for some ideas on what type bags/luggage go on them. Could someone point me in the right direction? Talking about the 690 enduro R
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Old 04-21-2013, 07:23 PM   #8380
Albie
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Originally Posted by Jonathan75 View Post
Where are the pics of this bike loaded with gear? Am I in the wrong spot I am looking for some ideas on what type bags/luggage go on them. Could someone point me in the right direction? Talking about the 690 enduro R
http://advrider.com/forums/showthrea...hlight=luggage
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Old 04-21-2013, 07:32 PM   #8381
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Thanks. Thats exactly what I was looking for.
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Old 04-21-2013, 07:43 PM   #8382
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heres a quick shot of mine as loaded for vacation this summer, pretty close to sorted out.



touratech racks, wolfman expedition bags and enduro tankbag, custom made bottle holders for my 1.5 liter fuel bottles, a pair of cheap molle pouches from a gun case. the pack behind the saddle is my tent. Im hoping to do 3000 miles or so over 7 days, with a BMW rally in the middle.
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Old 04-21-2013, 08:21 PM   #8383
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No skid plate?
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Old 04-21-2013, 08:27 PM   #8384
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Originally Posted by lightfighter View Post
heres a quick shot of mine as loaded for vacation this summer, pretty close to sorted out.

touratech racks, wolfman expedition bags and enduro tankbag, custom made bottle holders for my 1.5 liter fuel bottles, a pair of cheap molle pouches from a gun case. the pack behind the saddle is my tent. Im hoping to do 3000 miles or so over 7 days, with a BMW rally in the middle.
Nice setup. I'll probably end up with something similar except I will go for Wolfman racks. BTW why the centre stand?

Looks like you have a Kouba link fitted but you haven't raised the forks. I have a Kouba link on my bike and it was pretty easy to raise the forks about 15 mm. Tiny bit lower seat height and no detrimental effect on handling. If anything it's a bit better with the forks raised.
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Old 04-21-2013, 08:33 PM   #8385
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Aargh! What next?

I really shouldn't have played with the injector. I now have fuel leaking from a torn o-ring. The one that seals the nozzle to the housing. Be warned. Don't trigger the injector unless you have some way to stop the nozzle getting blown out of the housing by fuel pressure.

Good news is that this o-ring is a common one used in various KTMs and not just in injectors so it gets consumed fairly regularly and is in stock here.
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