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Old 03-17-2005, 10:19 PM   #1
woody's wheel works OP
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KTM wheel and tubeless tire solutions

[quote=KTMax]Hi all,

With this post I would like ask your opinion about a possible product for the 950. There have been lots of posts and discussions about fitting 17" or 19 and 17" wheels to a 950. To fit better tires, improve the handling & steering on Tarmac etc. And since we are all are the possible target audience, where else to put this question than here on ADVrider......


Now on to my question:

- A standard set of wheels with these hubs, stainless spokes and normal Excel rims would be about € 1.500,- including tires of choice
- A set of the described wheels with custom made hubs, spokes and tubeless BMW rims would be about € 2.000,- including tires of choice

The special parts and the BMW rims are simply more expensive.



OK....FYI..we have quite a bit of experience at making wire wheels run tubeless...as well as solving the very problems you address,,,we are constantly looking for stronger ,lighter,,less expensive solutions to your problems,,,we can provide similar products for less money right here in the USA...1,500 euro is circa $2,000,,and 2,000euro circa $2600 at todays exchange rate...we routinely build wheels from scratch using Sun/DID/Excel/Behr/Akront rims with talon/etc hubs and buchanan spokes for under $1200 a set with one year warranty...add tires and you'd still be saving $500 in the first scenario

for starters let me say that the BMW and MOTO-GUZZI X-lace tubeless wire solution is an optimal scenario ...i have given all the pros and cons in another post in the GS and vendor forum section regarding this techniques merits,,,(we have made numerous wheel conversions 19>21>17" fronts,,,17>18" rear using OEM BMW rims)

they present the best of the characteristics that you would want for a heavy adventure bike....tubeless ,,resilient,,tough,,,,the downside is that i am one of two people that i know of with the expertise at building re-building these X-laced wheels,,,BMW has a monster machine that locks everything in place and a technician that essential feeds spokes and nipples and then torques them all down,,they are happy with 1.5mm/.060 runout laterally and longtitudinally,,i routinely send them out with .030 or less

and YES...they are more expensive,,,,rims circa $300 +/- $50,,,spokes and nipples and set screws $120 a set ,,,my labor $150 for lace and true

i can also convert these GS wheels to any standard rim sizes ya want using special adapters for using standard spokes /nipples and lacing techniques

for you 950 riders...we are currently experimenting with a variety of rim /spoke /hub combos to finalize offering the SUPERLACED version of these wheels with a one year warranty against spoke failure,,,making stronger rims and cush hubs is also being addressed this very minute by colleagues of mine ...we offer superlaced wheels for all the other KTMs that are blowing rear spokes out regularly,,,we essentially blueprint your wheel and use spoke/size/material/lace patterns that achieve those results...they are like 'mags that feel alive'

TUBELESS..???...the main thing ya need are rims that comply with the international standards for running tubeless tires,,,if the rim does not have the safety bead (the extra hump on your bead that the tubeles tire has to pop over and helps from poping off the bead in the event of air loss) DO NOT EVEN BOTHER TO ATTEMPT MAKING IT TUBELESS!!!!

we charge $60 to seal the rims....we have done hundreds...had no comebacks,,until a supermotard racer placed tire warmers on his wheels....left em cooking over lunch,,,and with the first burnout slung the sealing material off the rim...we are currently looking at hi temp sealers,,,in the meantime experimenting with adding two layers of the nylon embedded packing tape as an 'anti-fling strap'..crude but effective so far,,,

regarding that trick carbon sealing tape,,,we happened to be part of the R&D process of the denver manufacturer....heat and proper adhesion where its main nemesis,,,hence we do not use it,,,,the spot where you start going over the beginning of the tape on to the second layer was also prone to leaking

hope this sheds some light,,,woody

woody's wheel works screwed with this post 12-24-2005 at 09:12 AM
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Old 03-18-2005, 06:03 AM   #2
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Thank you for your input. But I still have a couple questions:

1. Are you saying you will be building complete new tubless wheels for KTM 950? If so, will they be vailable on standard sizes?

2. Or are you saying that you will seal standard KTM 950 wheels for tubeless?

-bob
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Old 03-18-2005, 07:36 AM   #3
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KTM tubeless wheel answers & a few thoughts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pantah
Thank you for your input. But I still have a couple questions:

1. Are you saying you will be building complete new tubless wheels for KTM 950? If so, will they be vailable on standard sizes?

2. Or are you saying that you will seal standard KTM 950 wheels for tubeless?

-bob
what i am saying is:
1.we will only make wheels tubeless if they have the safety bead in them...and that can be done with a broad range of custom wheels that can currently be built...we can enhance the chances of you not having to dicker with tightening your spokes and thus ruining your sealed rim by having it SUPERLACED,,,we are evaluating if it is feasible to re-invent the 950 wheels using the GS BMW series technology

2.what has worked before in most riding situatons is being challenged by two new demands placed on the existing rim sealing technology......first,,the use of tire warmers by supermotard/road racers which raises the rim temperatures far above 'normal' use...causing the sealant to soften and then separate from the rim due to centrifugal forces

and second,,,the lower tire pressures being run by the off-road enthusiasts....i think that's why KTM designed that lip as added insurance to keep the tire from slipping off at lower pressures,,,we have machined/changed the profile of the safety bead for those riders that demanded easier tire changing capabilities...

i can write several pages on the many factors that are involved in making rims tubeless...there are so many ..the obvious like correct rim selection and IMMACULATELY prepping/cleaning the rim and nipples are easy,,it's the little stuff,,,ie..spoke and nipple selection...ss spokes and ss nipples wow great!!...not so fast...if ya don't use the special anti-seize jism provided,,ya can't tighten em adequately and they gall and seize on ya,,use it and try to go tubeless and the jism slowly works its way between rim and sealant compromising the seal...and on and on

in perusing more and more threads related to the trials and tribulations of the adventure riders and their new mounts/wheel issues,,i have to pause and digress a few moments...and share some notions with you...

in creating solutions we have to constantly balance our objectives within the parameters we can live with,,,and they can be as varied as how much am i willing to pay for this,,,,will this set me up for a lawsuit in litiguous america,,,,am i sacrificing safety for that added edge in competition,,,,etc

nuff said..it is of to work,,woody

woody's wheel works screwed with this post 03-19-2005 at 02:44 AM Reason: edit
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Old 03-18-2005, 08:02 AM   #4
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Ohhh....Thanks



- pantah
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Old 03-18-2005, 10:58 AM   #5
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The supermoto guys are now using spoke nippples that are threaded into the rim with small "O" rings on them to seal individual niples.
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Old 03-19-2005, 05:36 PM   #6
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[QUOTE=woody's wheel works][QUOTE=KTMax]Hi all,

we charge $50 to seal the rims....we have done hundreds...had no comebacks

How do we get in touch with "WOODY's" if we want to send our stock rims in, to be sealed??
turn around time?
sounds great!!
thanx
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Old 03-19-2005, 06:00 PM   #7
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Thanks, Woody, for a cogent post on the subject! I've often wondered why one couldn't just seal the spoke nipples and run tubeless, but your insight clears that up.

mully
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Old 03-20-2005, 08:33 AM   #8
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O-ring sealing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flanny
The supermoto guys are now using spoke nippples that are threaded into the rim with small "O" rings on them to seal individual niples.
hi,,,this is the direction we have been leaning towards,,,can you put me in touch with the folks using that technique???...just to make sure we are on the same wavelength....''threaded in to the rim " has me curious because once ya thread into the rim,,,how do ya true???...holler amd thanks ,,woody
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Old 03-20-2005, 09:20 AM   #9
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rim sealing

[QUOTE=wesfnw][QUOTE=woody's wheel works]
Quote:
Originally Posted by KTMax
Hi all,

we charge $50 to seal the rims....we have done hundreds...had no comebacks

How do we get in touch with "WOODY's" if we want to send our stock rims in, to be sealed??
turn around time?
sounds great!!
thanx
in quoting me above,,you should have also included,,,,'had no comebacks until a supermotard racer placed tire warmers on his wheels'

that incident..and a dozen other customers bringing me a variety of other vendors wheels to have their leaking 'tubeless rims' repaired/resealed,,,,has given me the opportunity to view/review and appraise the varied sealing processes and their inherent problems and pitfalls....i'll go into that in more detail later,,,,because every one of these processes works ,,,,up until...some have a better track record and some shouldn't even be out there on the market......

we are in america....where anyone can offer many goods and services to anyone without them being scrutinized ....caveat emptor/buyer beware....is the rule of the day ,,,we builders/manufacturers live under the never ending threat of being sued,,,,as if that threat is the answer to solving the problems....

in my native Germany,,,NO-THING get's to the market without TUV analysis and approval...at least officially,,,and most europeans wouldn't buy it without the TUV approval symbol on it,,,so the buying/motoring public gets goods and services that they can have a certain amount of confidence in...kind of like the FDA and UL does for us in the drug and appliance industries...by the way many european companies won't sell me their products for fear they will be dragged into frivolous lawsuits ...

notice ...NO OEM manufacturer offers this service....because it is not yet perfected and bulletproof....i hear rumors that one of the biggest producers of wire wheels is recommending tubes in all their tubeless wires

so if ya can live with that fact and handle some disclaimers,,,,current technology/techniques work up to a point....

like i wrote before,,we are evaluating all that we know about in order to offer you an even better solution...in the mean time,,,it takes several day turn around,,,you have to let the sealant cure

Woody's Wheel Works
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woody's wheel works screwed with this post 04-28-2005 at 06:49 AM Reason: add info
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Old 03-28-2005, 01:03 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woody's wheel works
in quoting me above,,you should have also included,,,,'had no comebacks until a supermotard racer placed tire warmers on his wheels'

that incident..and a dozen other customers bringing me a variety of other vendors wheels to have their leaking 'tubeless rims' repaired/resealed,,,,has given me the opportunity to view/review and appraise the varied sealing processes and their inherent problems and pitfalls....i'll go into that in more detail later,,,,because every one of these processes works ,,,,up until...some have a better track record and some shouldn't even be out there on the market......

we are in america....where anyone can offer many goods and services to anyone without them being scrutinized ....caveat emptor/buyer beware....is the rule of the day ,,,we builders/manufacturers live under the never ending threat of being sued,,,,as if that threat is the answer to solving the problems....

in my native Germany,,,NO-THING get's to the market without TUV analysis and approval...at least officially,,,and most europeans wouldn't buy it without the TUV approval symbol on it,,,so the buying/motoring public gets goods and services that they can have a certain amount of confidence in...kind of like the FDA and UL does for us in the drug and appliance industries...by the way many european companies won't sell me their products for fear they will be dragged into frivolous lawsuits aka the McDonalds 'hot coffee in the lap' lawsuit..in germany,,the judge would kick that woman out of the court for her stupidity and penalize her lawyer for wasting his time...notice NO OEM manufacturer offers this service....because it is not yet perfected and bulletproof....

so if ya can live with that fact and handle some disclaimers,,,,current technology/techniques work up to a point....

like i wrote before,,we are evaluating all that we know about in order to offer you an even better solution...in the mean time,,,it takes several day turn around,,,ya have to let the sealant cure

Woody's Wheel Works
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denver,co 80223-4017
303-936-0232
BUMP for some folks lookin for reason why not to try convet tube to tubeless tires - thanks for the heads up on the rim differences woody

Meat

ps - the MacDonald's woman is cited often in tort reform discussions but rarely do people know why she won. She won because Micky D's spec'ed out 200 degree coffee in cups only rated for 120 degrees; the bottom literally fell out (it didn't "spill"). IMO, MD was liable for that stupidity. Most of the other tort reform examples have been fabricated: check snopes.com - and don't believe the hype!
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Old 04-27-2005, 09:50 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meat popsicle
BUMP for some folks lookin for reason why not to try convet tube to tubeless tires - thanks for the heads up on the rim differences woody
Once I get the 950, I'd be interested in getting a spare set of wheels so that I can swap out quickly between road and more dirt orientated tires.

One of the big sticking points for me with the Adventure are the tubed tires and limited tire choices.

Anybody got any experience running BMW GS size wheels on the 950, using (for example) ME Tourances?
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Old 04-29-2005, 08:23 AM   #12
woody's wheel works OP
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mc donalds ...correction

[
ps - the MacDonald's woman is cited often in tort reform discussions but rarely do people know why she won. She won because Micky D's spec'ed out 200 degree coffee in cups only rated for 120 degrees; the bottom literally fell out (it didn't "spill"). IMO, MD was liable for that stupidity. Most of the other tort reform examples have been fabricated: check snopes.com - and don't believe the hype![/QUOTE]

thanks for correcting me on that..i have been trying to edit it out,,,but don't know how to rectify it eveywhere....sorry,,,woody
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Old 04-29-2005, 08:35 AM   #13
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tire selection

Quote:
Originally Posted by tshelver
Once I get the 950, I'd be interested in getting a spare set of wheels so that I can swap out quickly between road and more dirt orientated tires.

One of the big sticking points for me with the Adventure are the tubed tires and limited tire choices.

Anybody got any experience running BMW GS size wheels on the 950, using (for example) ME Tourances?
i can change and seal rims to accomodate your need for tubeless tires,,,

for example...for the front...Sun 21"-2.15" with safety bead ,,,seal it ,,use conti TKC-80 TL (TL=tubeless),,for the more off road than road riders......or switch to (19"-2.50' for the full range of tubeless tires developed for the BMW GS crowd)

for the rear,,,switch to either a 17'-3.50(for more dirt than street use)...or 17-4.25" (more street than dirt use)
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Old 04-30-2005, 05:37 AM   #14
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Hi Woody, I want to thank you for all the GREAT WORK you have done for me over all these years....

Hope you are riding this spring, and often....
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Old 04-30-2005, 12:14 PM   #15
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Eh?

About sealing wheels.

ME and a friend just had our rear wheels sealed in California, we are from texas, so shipping and all.. that..

The wheels came back looking great.

Mine came off at about 90 on the highway. in a split second no warning at all, I got it stopped thanks God... call my friend to tell him about it his came apart a week after.. Becarefull who you use to seal your rims..... that can be dangerous.


John,,...
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