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Old 09-16-2011, 11:08 AM   #1
eakins OP
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Will there be a day when someone makes a plug and play FI unit for carb bikes?

been thinking about the 2012 bikes and how things are moving to FI.
looking at the 2012 wr450f one realizes how it's still the same motor with upgraded fueling and it got me thinking.

what about a self contained unit from mikuni or keihin that pulls fuel from your existing traditional gas tank and then pressurizes it within the FI unit or a small subtank. after that a FI unit slips in to where your carb was. they're that small at this point. with spacers and various boots 1 unit could work over many bikes w/ a usb port to update for your bike or mods. Looking at the TU250 you realize it's a basic air-cooled motor with different fueling.

anyone think this will ever happen?
i'd pay $400-500 to upgrade my DR.
i'm very happy with my bike but ride from sea level to 14K+ and that has it's challenges.
if need be, i'd pay a welder to put a O2 sensor bung in my pipe.
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Old 09-16-2011, 12:30 PM   #2
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I can't see it happening. FI needs more than just the TB and an O2 bung, it needs crank sensors, air temp sensors, barometric sensors and a map optimized for each specific bike. It would probably also need a return line to the tank. The systems are getting simpler (with new dirt bike fitments) but the factories have the resources and drive (and large production runs) to do it.

You can buy kits for small block V8's but they cost thousands and they have the advantage of a large user community.
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Old 09-16-2011, 12:56 PM   #3
Carter Pewterschmidt
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The $400 to $500 price you'd be happy to pay isn't what companies would be happy to sell them for. Think about it, just a plain old carb costs around $400. With the cost of the throttle body, sensors, and ecu, plus the R&D involved with setting all the fuel maps I'd imagine it would cost around $1000 or more. Not to mention tuning time and cost.

The electronics and programming are the big killer. With an aftermarket carb the manufacture can recommend what jetting to use as a base, and the carb buyer will more or less expect to have to do some tuning on their own. With an FI setup they would almost have to sell it with a basic plug and play map set to go because the typical buyer couldn't do it themselves. Tuning FI isn't just swapping out jets with a screw driver. You need a wideband O2 sensor, preferably a dyno, tuning software, and a general knowledge of FI tuning. I've dabbled in tuning on fuel injected cars and it's not a walk in the park. Then to pay someone to dyno tune your machine will cost around $75-$100 an hour. I know one company that offers an autotune setup that will program itself with a reading off a wideband O2 sensor, but the results typically aren't very precise.

It's just not very simple or practical. When a company offers a new bike with FI they spend have to spend a bunch of time doing the tuning. You ever notice in magazines when they test new release FI bikes that a lot of the time they find a stumble in the powerband somewhere and they'll say that the fuel map needs revision. That means if you're going to install an aftermarket FI setup that fuel map revision will be your responsibility.
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Old 09-16-2011, 02:15 PM   #4
Seikkailu_R
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Its not impossible to make working diy efi for bike.
But it takes time and nerves to make it work perfect.
And second bike to run while project is stuck for reason or another...

Maybe microsquirt controller, used throttle body + all other parts, pump, sensors etc.

But any major company making drop in kit, dont believe it happen...
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Old 09-16-2011, 02:19 PM   #5
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+1 on the squirt
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Old 09-16-2011, 02:24 PM   #6
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No chance for that price.

You need a throttle body, injector(s), fuel lines, pump, possibly an accumulator tank.

On the electrical/sensor side, you need a crank/cam position sensor (or at least engine speed, depending if you want to run batch or sequential), throttle position, intake manifold pressure, ambient air temp, and coolant temp, at a minimum.

By the time you wire all this stuff, it's more cost and a more in depth project.

On top of that, building maps is a LOT of work. Totally doable, but to build maps for a wide variety of bikes would be a challenge.

If it happened, I would expect it to be more like a kit for one particular family of bikes.

I'd ask, what about fuel injection is worth a $1000 price tag on a (relatively) cheap dual sport?
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Old 09-16-2011, 02:51 PM   #7
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I agree with most here but it's getting more and more possible. As more bikes become fuel injected there will be a greater number of throttle body types available. The Auto-Tune technology becoming more common means less skill with maps is required to get it running right.
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Old 09-16-2011, 06:22 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eakins View Post
I'd pay $400-500 to upgrade my DR.
I'm very happy with my bike but ride from sea level to 14K+ and that has it's challenges.
The whole system to FI the DR650 is in the Suzuki 700 Quad which even has a available Dynojet PCIII USB.
Maybe even off the RMZ.

Is there anything complicated about fuel injection,no.
Its only a high pressure system with a return bleed to maintain the fuel rail pressure (lets say 40+ psi)
An injector that needs a fuel map and various sensors so the engine has an idea of when to inject fuel and for what duration.
Throw in a APS so it can have an idea of altitude.

Submersible fuel pumps are going to run cooler than an external item that might have a 90 psi working pressure.

You need a fuel pressure regulator of some sort to maintain the working pressure at the fuel rail.
I think some of the GSXR's might even do that at the fuel pump.

A throttle body with a throttle position sensor.

You need a crank shaft position sensor,the one on the DR looks just like that on the TL1000 (FI) and a full circumference reader wheel.

A cold start system. (manual would be good on a air cooled DS)

A intake air temperature sensor.

A atmospheric pressure sensor.

A cam shaft position sensor.

Associated loom and a ECU that has external mapping ability or has removable chips.

Did I miss anything.

The DR 650 would not be hard to fuel inject (Of course people have done it already)

The problem with a one fit all motorcycle system is driving it. (sensors)
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Old 09-16-2011, 06:31 PM   #9
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I was thinking the opposite the other day, $500 carburator race kit to ditch the crappy EFI that most bikes come with.
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Old 09-16-2011, 06:40 PM   #10
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assuming it's financially & technically feasible for a company to do this (even at higher price points), why could they not create a FI tune for each specific bike? they would do the dyno testing on each specific bike once and make that tune downloadable for you to use on your unit. with software you can fine tune that tune for aftermarket pipes and share those with others. tweaking FI tunes and sharing them is nothing new.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Carter Pewterschmidt View Post
The $400 to $500 price you'd be happy to pay isn't what companies would be happy to sell them for. Think about it, just a plain old carb costs around $400. With the cost of the throttle body, sensors, and ecu, plus the R&D involved with setting all the fuel maps I'd imagine it would cost around $1000 or more. Not to mention tuning time and cost.

The electronics and programming are the big killer. With an aftermarket carb the manufacture can recommend what jetting to use as a base, and the carb buyer will more or less expect to have to do some tuning on their own. With an FI setup they would almost have to sell it with a basic plug and play map set to go because the typical buyer couldn't do it themselves. Tuning FI isn't just swapping out jets with a screw driver. You need a wideband O2 sensor, preferably a dyno, tuning software, and a general knowledge of FI tuning. I've dabbled in tuning on fuel injected cars and it's not a walk in the park. Then to pay someone to dyno tune your machine will cost around $75-$100 an hour. I know one company that offers an autotune setup that will program itself with a reading off a wideband O2 sensor, but the results typically aren't very precise.

It's just not very simple or practical. When a company offers a new bike with FI they spend have to spend a bunch of time doing the tuning. You ever notice in magazines when they test new release FI bikes that a lot of the time they find a stumble in the powerband somewhere and they'll say that the fuel map needs revision. That means if you're going to install an aftermarket FI setup that fuel map revision will be your responsibility.
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Old 09-16-2011, 08:03 PM   #11
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Microsquirt and Ebay will go very, very far on few $. But a custom EFI system will become a new hobby in itself. Having a jetting chart and knowing what to change when is, overall, much easier and less time consuming, if you don't find the DIY EFI hobby intrinsically rewarding. And if something was to go wrong with your Microsquirt, you would ideally have a spare that is flashed with your latest tune packed on the bike. You won't run into that with a carb.
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Old 09-16-2011, 08:37 PM   #12
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I have a TU250 and the FI works flawlessly.
Most of the system is in the throttle body, the pressure sensor, throttle position sensor, idle speed control, injector, dual throttles (one cable operated, one motor driven) and the intake air temp sensor.
The oxy sensor is not important since its a narrow band system just to pass the epa and only works at mid rpm mid load.
The fuel pump is in the tank with built in regulator so there is only the pressure feed hose to the injector in the throttle body.

The engine temp sensor is mounted to the cylinder, one of the few parts not in the throttle body.
The throttle body is no bigger then most carbs.

Its a very good system, as I did some experiments.
I opened up the intake and exhaust and expected the motor to be lean (like Harleys are when you mod them) but I added a pot to the engine temp sensor to make the ecu think the motor was cooler (sets a richer mixture) and had no improvement in the way the bike ran, it only ran worse richer, so that tells me the system adjusts for changes like it does for altitude changes.
I tried an open air box with no filter even, and a more open exhaust, and the bike ran great.
Adding more fuel only made things worse.

Not having the fuel pump in the gas tank might not be real easy to do.

On the other hand, a correctly set up pumper carb works great in my book, for everything except huge altitude changes, and on some bikes like the dr650, it would be easy to open up the air box more when you got high.
Some people just pull the side off, or the snorkel off.

My DR ran fantastic with a pumper carb, instant throttle response (loved those wheelies), and with the needle set on the lean side returned 55 mpg riding like a mad man in the dirt.
You cant ask for more than that.

And if I was in Mongolia, I would much rather clean out a jet then try and find a new fuel pump or ecu.
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Old 09-16-2011, 09:28 PM   #13
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For "small" engines...

CHEAP!

http://ecotrons.com/Small_Engine_EFI_PNP_kit.html
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Old 09-16-2011, 11:30 PM   #14
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I'll actually be using the ecotrons kit with my mini KLR. Should be able to order it within the next week or so. Have to let everyone know how it works!
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Old 09-17-2011, 12:53 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8gv View Post
there ya go it's feasible!
and being done on 250s for $500...exactly what i asked about and it's here TODAY.
http://ecotrons.com/Kawasaki_Ninja_250cc_EFI_kit.html

my guess is their kits will grow over time.
i'm going to contact them thanks.
glad to see that everyone is not a naysayer.
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