ADVrider

Go Back   ADVrider > Bikes > Battle scooters
User Name
Password
Register Inmates Photos Site Rules Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 09-21-2011, 11:58 PM   #1
Entropic86 OP
Adventurer
 
Entropic86's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2011
Oddometer: 43
CH150 Variator Rattle cause/solution?

Hi all, I've been a lurker for a while so I thought I'd make my first thread about my scooter.

I bought this scoot with a worn out starter. After fixing the starter and getting the motor running smooth, I found out that the variator is rattling. I took the variator apart to inspect it and all the roller weights were within spec(20mm), but they all seemed to have a small, worn, flat spot on them. I'm wondering if anyone experienced with these knows if these flat spots are the cause of the rattle. I didn't regrease the variator as it looked like it had plenty.


A pic just for fun:

Entropic86 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2011, 03:38 AM   #2
riddleofsteel
Adventurer
 
Joined: Aug 2011
Oddometer: 48
My 1985 150 Elite also rattles at certain speeds. At idle there is a slight rattle that disappears with acceleration and re-appears around thirty mph.At that speed it often sounds like a can of nuts rattling. On my work bench is a box that contains all the seals and gaskets needed to tear down the variator and put it back together. There is also a set of 20x25 12 gram Dr. Pulley sliders. I have high hopes that this will solve the problem. I alos found a vendor in Taiwan that sells a modern style unsealed variator that fits CH125 and CH150 engines. I went ahead and ordered on of these also . I plan on rebuilding the OEM variator with sliders and grease. If that does not work I will swap variator and see if that helps.
riddleofsteel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2011, 10:45 AM   #3
btcn
Beastly Adventurer
 
btcn's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2010
Location: Morgan Hill CA
Oddometer: 2,880
Beautiful Elite 150!

I would go ahead and replace those rollers, you'll get better performance and whatnot.

This could be the cause of the rattle, or maybe not. I believe CVTs make a lot of strange noises and a loud knocking/rattle at idle is completely normal. This happened to me before, but I heard CVTs can do this and I rode 5,000 miles like that and it seemed to go away. As long as everything looks normal in the CVT no worries.

Now if the rattling is more like a vibration sort of thing it could be your muffler heat shield, these can make noise and when I took mine off it runs SO much quieter, theres no noise going over bumps anymore.

But I'd just order some new weights and inspect the CVT and see if it goes away or lessons.

BTW if you haven't already replace your intake manifold unless you want your engine to possibly self destruct or burn a valve! I'm talking about the little rubber intake manifold that the carb goes into, $30 on Babbitts/HondaPartsHouse.
__________________
85 Honda Shadow 700, 86 Honda Elite 150 deluxe, 2001 Honda Elite 80, 07 CRF 100, 07 CRF 50, 07 DRZ 250, 78 CB 400 Automatic [Project Bike]
btcn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2011, 12:38 PM   #4
riddleofsteel
Adventurer
 
Joined: Aug 2011
Oddometer: 48
To me it seems like the centrifugal force would hold the rollers to the outside of the variator and I am having some trouble understanding how they could be rattling like the noise I am hearing. However after observing the wear patterns of used OEM rollers I can only conclude that they go from rest to engaged to maximum position and do so in different orientations
each time. It makes me wonder if that may leave some tightly engaged and some lose to rattle at certain speeds.
To be honest I have never heard as many complaints about variator rattle as you do from Elite and Helix owners. This makes me wonder if the variator design for these scooters may be the cause. Looking at the parts breakdown on the new Honda SH150 I see it uses the same size rollers but has an open variator design without the seals and internal grease the Elite uses. I ride with a guy that has a SH150 Honda and his CVT is largely silent. If the Dr. Pulley sliders do not solve the problem I am going to swap the entire variator.
riddleofsteel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2011, 02:38 PM   #5
bbishoppcm
It ain't a moped.
 
bbishoppcm's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2010
Location: Bennington, NH
Oddometer: 666
The rollers are fine, they last like 30,000 miles (flat spots will form after just a few hundred miles; this means they are "broken in," and not an indicator of replacement).

The rattle is your clutch shoes bouncing off their stops; you can verify this by lowering your idle speed; the noise should disappear. I can provide more info if you need.
bbishoppcm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2011, 06:00 PM   #6
riddleofsteel
Adventurer
 
Joined: Aug 2011
Oddometer: 48
Quote:
The rollers are fine, they last like 30,000 miles (flat spots will form after just a few hundred miles; this means they are "broken in," and not an indicator of replacement).

The rattle is your clutch shoes bouncing off their stops; you can verify this by lowering your idle speed; the noise should disappear. I can provide more info if you need.
That is what I love about this forum, I learn all kinds of stuff.

In listening to the noise thru the CVT cover it does seem to be coming from the BACK where the clutch is. As I stated I could not figure how the rollers could be the problem but I did plan on having the parts on hand before dis assembly. My bike only has 3000 miles on it so I guess I am quite a ways from needing the parts.

I still have a problem seeing how the clutch shoes, which are fully engaged at 30 MPH is causing the "nuts in a can" sound I am hearing. On these bikes the clutch shoes engage as the RPMS increase. They do not turn lose on my bike until the road speed falls below 10 MPH.

How did you figure out it was the clutch shoes? Is this noise causing excessive wear? Is there a way to quiet them down?

Thanks

riddleofsteel screwed with this post 09-22-2011 at 06:12 PM
riddleofsteel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2011, 06:43 PM   #7
bbishoppcm
It ain't a moped.
 
bbishoppcm's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2010
Location: Bennington, NH
Oddometer: 666
Quote:
Originally Posted by riddleofsteel View Post
That is what I love about this forum, I learn all kinds of stuff.

In listening to the noise thru the CVT cover it does seem to be coming from the BACK where the clutch is. As I stated I could not figure how the rollers could be the problem but I did plan on having the parts on hand before dis assembly. My bike only has 3000 miles on it so I guess I am quite a ways from needing the parts.

I still have a problem seeing how the clutch shoes, which are fully engaged at 30 MPH is causing the "nuts in a can" sound I am hearing. On these bikes the clutch shoes engage as the RPMS increase. They do not turn lose on my bike until the road speed falls below 10 MPH.

How did you figure out it was the clutch shoes? Is this noise causing excessive wear? Is there a way to quiet them down?

Thanks
A sound clip is worth a thousand (nuts in a can). Normally, if the idle is too high, the shoes will "float" in a position that isn't close enough to rub against the clutch bell, but will "lift off" their rubber stops, and since these engines don't idle smooth as glass (and what single-cylinder engine does?) the shoes will sort-of bounce off the stops, causing a "clattering" sound that can be mistaken for faulty bearings, or other issues. To isolate this sound, lower the idle down a bit (while keeping it running smoothly), the noise should disappear. If this is the case, the noise is nothing to be alarmed about; simply set the idle to the factory spec'd 1,000 RPM and ride on, noise or no noise. Faulty clutch bearings will make noise regardless of engine speed, but the noise will disappear once the clutch engages. Faulty input shaft (reduction gear side) will make noise when the bike is in motion, but NOT when stopped. Variator sliders ("rollers") really cannot make much noise at any speed, as they are bathed in a thick bath of grease, and the centrifugal force doesn't give them any opportunity to "rattle around." You should also know that removing and re-installation of the clutch and/or variator requires the use of an impact gun to ensure the flange nuts are properly torqued (having had my clutch bell nut fall off while descending a mountain auto road, I can personally attest to this!) The other issue I mentioned in an earlier thread is the likelihood of a broken exhaust baffle, which is a very common problem with these bikes. I really need to hear a video or sound clip of this to make a more accurate diagnosis, but I have had one of these engines completely apart on my coffee table, so I will have a good idea as to what you're issue is.

bbishoppcm screwed with this post 09-22-2011 at 06:50 PM
bbishoppcm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2011, 07:12 PM   #8
riddleofsteel
Adventurer
 
Joined: Aug 2011
Oddometer: 48
Thanks for the input.

I use an electric impact gun to remove the transmission nuts we are discussing and a torque wrench to re-install them. I have worked on a few scooters but none larger than 49cc's. I have learned that a good service manual with the proper torque values is essential.

I have not discounted that the sounds at idle may be the clutch shoes. As I said they are coming from the rear of the CVT. I can not swear exactly where the sounds at 30 or so MPH are coming from but it seems to be down low on the bike. I removed the muffler and gave it a good shaking. I did not hear any thing loose in there but I guess under exhaust pressure somthing could still be moving in there. I had thought about getting an old stethoscope head, some tubing and an earpiece. then hook it all up, tape the stethoscope to various areas of interest and drive to see if I can isolate the noise. The bike seems to run and drive perfect right now and the noise is more of an aggravation than a problem. I guess I am somewhat concerned about long term wear from something being wrong.
riddleofsteel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2011, 07:22 PM   #9
bbishoppcm
It ain't a moped.
 
bbishoppcm's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2010
Location: Bennington, NH
Oddometer: 666
OK, I wasn't sure of your skill level (we do get some genuine newbies here who are not familiar with working on their own machines, so many of us try to be as detailed as possible when responding to questions).

The clutch shoes do rest against rubber sleeves that, if I recall, fit over the resting pins. If you ever have the clutch apart, you may want to check to see of those are even still there (I can only imagine they've turned to dust by now). If these are missing, the clattering can only get louder and more obnoxious. You've really got me on this one, I look forward to seeing how you resolve it!
bbishoppcm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2011, 07:36 PM   #10
btcn
Beastly Adventurer
 
btcn's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2010
Location: Morgan Hill CA
Oddometer: 2,880
Yea CVTs really aren't my area of expertise, bbishoppcm's right about this one! We can all learn from these things!
__________________
85 Honda Shadow 700, 86 Honda Elite 150 deluxe, 2001 Honda Elite 80, 07 CRF 100, 07 CRF 50, 07 DRZ 250, 78 CB 400 Automatic [Project Bike]
btcn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2011, 07:56 PM   #11
riddleofsteel
Adventurer
 
Joined: Aug 2011
Oddometer: 48
After a LOT of reading I have concluded that I am going to tear down the CVT and inspect the variator and clutch assembly for wear. When I go to re-assemble the unit it will have all new seals, gaskets and cover bolt isolators. I am also going to go ahead and install the 20x15 12 gram Dr. Pulley sliders. Not only do I like their performance but in my experience they have solved noisy CVT problems in several other scooters I have worked on.

I will update this thread when I complete all of this.
riddleofsteel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2011, 08:24 PM   #12
Entropic86 OP
Adventurer
 
Entropic86's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2011
Oddometer: 43
Wow, thanks for all the responses. I'm not a total noob when it comes to working on my own bikes, everything was torqued and assembled correctly. But, I did make the mistake of assuming that the noise was coming from the variator and not the clutch. After turning down the idle, the noise is went 98% away (and it does appear to be coming from the clutch).

The clutch shoes have tons of life left....But, all the heat/time must have worn out the dampers. Are these rubber dampers part of the clutch shoes, or "weight set, clutch" as bikebandit calls them?

+1 on the carburetor boot replacement...Mine WAS cracked when I got it, whadayaknow....

Thanks again for all the responses,

I think I'm going to like it here on ADV

Dave
Entropic86 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2011, 09:38 PM   #13
Entropic86 OP
Adventurer
 
Entropic86's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2011
Oddometer: 43
Okay, I found the clutch Damper rubbers on Bikebandit. Looks like they can all be replaced for about $5.
Entropic86 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2011, 12:45 PM   #14
bbishoppcm
It ain't a moped.
 
bbishoppcm's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2010
Location: Bennington, NH
Oddometer: 666
Glad we could be of service! BTCN is also a great CH150 enthusiast, so you'll have plenty of support here.
bbishoppcm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-24-2011, 08:55 AM   #15
riddleofsteel
Adventurer
 
Joined: Aug 2011
Oddometer: 48
I have not been into the CVT yet but I cranked the Elite up today and was letting it warm up. For the first time I noticed a noise coming from low of the bike on the muffler side. Sure enough the dern heat shield is vibrating. I hooked up a long tube stethoscope to it and went down the road, At 25 to 30 MPH I was getting a ear full of "nuts in a tin can rattle" from the heat shield. It is too early to say I found it but I am pretty sure the harmonic vibration at certain speeds is what I am hearing.
riddleofsteel is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Share

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

.
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


Times are GMT -7.   It's 10:00 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ADVrider 2011-2014