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Old 06-28-2013, 09:54 PM   #2731
Digasi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gummee! View Post
As counter-intuitive as it sounds (to a lot of cyclists too) once you get more than 8-10 bikes in a group, it really is safer to act like a slow-moving car and take the whole lane.

I've done it both ways for lots of years and have had more close calls in single-file groups vs take the lane groups.

Taking the whole lane will tick off some impatient mouth-breathers, but they'll go around in the opposite lane. If you're single-file, they try and keep as much of their vehicle in the 'proper' lane and will pass the line of cyclists without realizing how long the line really is. Then, when there's a car coming at them its 'OMG! THERE'S A CAR COMING!' and the cyclists get squeezed even further. BTDT


M
I understand protecting you lane. The problem is when those cyclist (or cars, motorcycles) don't share the road by allowing faster traffic to ever pass. No, I don't mean getting out of the way of cars, but more realizing you are the slower user and making an effort to safely let them pass.
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Old 06-28-2013, 11:15 PM   #2732
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Originally Posted by Digasi View Post
I understand protecting you lane. The problem is when those cyclist (or cars, motorcycles) don't share the road by allowing faster traffic to ever pass. No, I don't mean getting out of the way of cars, but more realizing you are the slower user and making an effort to safely let them pass.
Sometimes, I'm staying way to the right around a blind left and a car, while well meaning, will move completely over to the oncoming lane. I figure it's only a matter of time before I witness a head on out in the middle of nowhere.
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Old 06-28-2013, 11:43 PM   #2733
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Daily commute, 12 miles long road with NO shoulder, nothing but hairpin turns crosses a ridge so 1/2 downhill each way, several thousand cars a day all in the 2 hour morning and 2 hour evening commute.

The road is scenic and connects a couple communities.

I get why a Bicycler would like the road, BUT for those 2 peak hours a day why try and cheat the odds?

Yet all summer in the evening, you'll spend an extra half hour to hour trying to get around bikes on the road. The ONLY way is if they ride single file and break up their lines into passable segments, but typically its a bike club and they stall badly on the 6 mile uphill grade, and refuse to help the pass. I've even had them cross into the left lane to prevent passing.

These are organized groups/clubs.. So coordinated a**holes..

Best weapon is the max smoke button on the Edge programmer in the diesel truck..

Sucks cause I like to bike, but the jerks in my town have poisoned the road for the thinking bikers...

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Old 06-29-2013, 12:01 AM   #2734
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Originally Posted by Gummee! View Post
Dood. You have no effing clue how much I'm *forced* to give by the mouth-breathing morons that live on the roads with me/us. I say forced because quite often I have no say in the matter. You're going to pass with inches to spare into that blind corner?! Well, I guess YOU have X-ray vision 'cause *I* certainly can't see what's coming!

I can see a day coming where there's going to be something coming. Its gotten close a few times this season already.

Treat me like a car and not an obstacle and I'll return the favor.

So a school bus dropping off kids is supposed to share the road? How bout a blue hair? Are they supposed to automagically get out of your way if they're going less than you want to go?

Next time you encounter more than one cyclist, take a second or two to examine the situation. If they singled up and you needed to pass em in a line, how far would you need to be in the opposite lane? How much longer time-wise would it take to get around them? Try timing it. I'm curious exactly how long it is you're 'held up.' My bet is 'less than 60sec.' If you're held up for less than 60sec, what need is there to pull over? Its not like you're having to follow 'us' for miles and miles and miles.

Here's another take on this discussion

M
I guess I expressed myself poorly, or your getting overly defensive . I'm on the road 8 to 10 hours a day and have no issue with the occasional minor delay of a cyclist, they are simply one of a thousand in my day.

I'm not saying the techniques you're talking about are wrong, I'm simply saying that perhaps they are not necessarily always the only choice for safely sharing the road.
Cyclist, trucker, driver, rider, pedestrian, we all have different needs, challenges, and desires that are often in conflict with others. we could all probably do better when it comes to sharing the road.
People aren't as dumb as our egos want/need them to be, most folks recognize the difference between obstenence, ignorance, and need.

As a cyclist you know there will be unreasonably impatient drivers, sometimes comments in your posts give the impression that you feel your choices and actions are beyond reproach. If your unwilling to at least consider the wants, needs, and desires of others, and have some willingness to make concessions to them when safe and reasonable, I don't see how you can hope to ever find a working equilibrium with others.

I recognize I don't have all the answers, and don't always do the right thing, its easy to get tunnel vision. Just because I question something, doesn't mean I'm closed minded, and haven't learned a thing or two from your posts.




As a city P&D driver, I am expected to make 1.64 stops an hour, have appointment deliveries, impatient customers, lunch closures, closing times, traffic, and other pressures. 60 seconds here and there in a 10 hour day can add up.

But....................

That doesn't mean I can't share the road with consideration for others.
For example, When waiting to pull on to a road, I will often wait longer than necessary to let an oncoming vehicle or traffic pass before pulling out so they don't get stuck behind me.

I can't please everybody all the time or even try, but I have a willingness to at least be mindful of others when I can. It doesn't have to be all or nothing.
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Old 06-29-2013, 12:38 AM   #2735
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Originally Posted by kbasa View Post
Sometimes, I'm staying way to the right around a blind left and a car, while well meaning, will move completely over to the oncoming lane. I figure it's only a matter of time before I witness a head on out in the middle of nowhere.
Don't confuse allowing faster traffic to pass with the absolute always allow faster traffic to pass. There are times, like a blind corner, when it is unsafe to one or all parties. Yes, both sides of this argument need to realize this. I am just saying I see a large number of mostly group cyclist that don't allow traffic to pass when they can. Utilizing the bike lane, single file in a straight section, splitting up into smaller groups so cars can pass quicker and safer, and even pulling over and stopping. Just to note, I have done and do all these things when I am the slower user of the road.
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Old 06-29-2013, 08:21 PM   #2736
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Digasi View Post
I understand protecting you lane. The problem is when those cyclist (or cars, motorcycles) don't share the road by allowing faster traffic to ever pass. No, I don't mean getting out of the way of cars, but more realizing you are the slower user and making an effort to safely let them pass.
We realize we're slower. Think about it for a bit and you'll see that what you want cyclists do to 'be good road users' its trading one bad situation for another one that may actually be worse for all involved.

Really, you DO want a pack to get around no matter how much you may think otherwise. As long as the cyclists aren't on the other side of the DY you've got LOTS of room.

We'll try this another way: Think of the last herd of Hardleys in parade formation you ran across. They're 2 x 2 for how long? 50m or so depending on the herd. Right?

We all know what kind of a PITA they are to get around. Right?

Now, make em all go single file and how much more of a PITA would THAT be to pass?

Granted, they're going faster than a pack of cyclists, but the idea's the same.

A more compact lump of anything is easier to pass than a strung out line.

...and...

I came across a coupla cop cars and a black Suburban in the middle of a 4-lane road on tonite's mtn bike ride. 50' down the road was a mangled bicycle.

The W&OD trail crosses a few 'major but not really' roads and it looks like a cyclist got broadsided in/near the crosswalk.

IDK any more details, but be VERY careful out there folks.

M
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Old 06-29-2013, 08:39 PM   #2737
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Quote:
Originally Posted by windmill View Post
I guess I expressed myself poorly, or your getting overly defensive . I'm on the road 8 to 10 hours a day and have no issue with the occasional minor delay of a cyclist, they are simply one of a thousand in my day.

I'm not saying the techniques you're talking about are wrong, I'm simply saying that perhaps they are not necessarily always the only choice for safely sharing the road.
Cyclist, trucker, driver, rider, pedestrian, we all have different needs, challenges, and desires that are often in conflict with others. we could all probably do better when it comes to sharing the road.
People aren't as dumb as our egos want/need them to be, most folks recognize the difference between obstenence, ignorance, and need.

As a cyclist you know there will be unreasonably impatient drivers, sometimes comments in your posts give the impression that you feel your choices and actions are beyond reproach. If your unwilling to at least consider the wants, needs, and desires of others, and have some willingness to make concessions to them when safe and reasonable, I don't see how you can hope to ever find a working equilibrium with others.

I recognize I don't have all the answers, and don't always do the right thing, its easy to get tunnel vision. Just because I question something, doesn't mean I'm closed minded, and haven't learned a thing or two from your posts.




As a city P&D driver, I am expected to make 1.64 stops an hour, have appointment deliveries, impatient customers, lunch closures, closing times, traffic, and other pressures. 60 seconds here and there in a 10 hour day can add up.

But....................

That doesn't mean I can't share the road with consideration for others.
For example, When waiting to pull on to a road, I will often wait longer than necessary to let an oncoming vehicle or traffic pass before pulling out so they don't get stuck behind me.

I can't please everybody all the time or even try, but I have a willingness to at least be mindful of others when I can. It doesn't have to be all or nothing.
I don't claim to be infallible. If I've given off that impression, I apologize. What I AM trying to convey is my actions *in specific* are learned behaviors from the last 20 years of riding. If I ride like the people in this thread are suggesting (aka ride like a scared rabbit) I get hassled, passed in unsafe spots, etc. If I ride assertively (aka in the right tire track), all those things are lessened or reduced to an extent that it ceases to be as much of a problem.

I've said many times I'm the easiest SOB to pass *when its safe.* If it isn't safe, I'm probably the widest cyclist you'll meet up with.

I signal. Often. I know that there's others out there that don't feel comfortable with that, but I've found it helps. The whole hand out in a 'stop!' position lets the people coming up behind me know that I know they're there and that there's something coming. I'll usually hold out the # of fingers of cars coming. Whether they get it or not, I've at least done *something* to ensure everyone's safety.

Pass me safely, I wave thanks.

etc etc etc

All stuff I've posted about for years now. Nothing much has changed. ...except the hostility of the drivers I encounter. That's gone up over the years. At least around these parts. Used to be I was out riding and I'd meet up with Farmer Brown in his beat up old pickemup. Farmer Brown typically isn't in a huge hurry and typically passes safely.

Nowadays, however, the same roads are likely to have a soccer mom in her SUV driving hell-bent-for-leather to get the crotch fruit to their after school activities on time after stopping for a mochalattecchino. That 'move to the country' brought 'inside the beltway' attitudes out to the cow fields. It sucks ass, but I can't change it and they can't afford to move back in any more 'cause property values are in the terlit.

With the exception of Fed Ex drivers (and a few local businesses that I'll refuse to do business with) most professional drivers I've encountered have been polite. Thank you.

Ask any serious cyclist out there and you'll get a similar response: ride like the drivers in this thread want you to and you get hassled more than if you ride like I keep posting about.

I'd make a pole, but I already know what it'll say.

M
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Old 06-29-2013, 09:32 PM   #2738
windmill
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gummee! View Post
With the exception of Fed Ex drivers (and a few local businesses that I'll refuse to do business with) most professional drivers I've encountered have been polite. Thank you.

Ironically.............

But I'm a class A driver for freight on the clock, not a parcel van driver for ground as a contractor.

Paying drivers by the delivery, be it a package, dump truck of dirt, or a shipping container, is asking for trouble, and unfortunately the entire industry is pushing productivity over professionalism...............but that's OT.
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Old 06-30-2013, 07:28 AM   #2739
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Quote:
Originally Posted by windmill View Post

Ironically.............

But I'm a class A driver for freight on the clock, not a parcel van driver for ground as a contractor.

Paying drivers by the delivery, be it a package, dump truck of dirt, or a shipping container, is asking for trouble, and unfortunately the entire industry is pushing productivity over professionalism...............but that's OT.
Those are the worst ones around here. The really big ones. When those guys are running light, they blow past me like I am sitting still when I have my cruise set at 73. One ran off the road the other day and mowed down a 100 yard long stretch of marsh in the process. It was an impressive sight.
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Old 06-30-2013, 03:43 PM   #2740
Digasi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gummee! View Post
We realize we're slower. Think about it for a bit and you'll see that what you want cyclists do to 'be good road users' its trading one bad situation for another one that may actually be worse for all involved.

Really, you DO want a pack to get around no matter how much you may think otherwise. As long as the cyclists aren't on the other side of the DY you've got LOTS of room.

We'll try this another way: Think of the last herd of Hardleys in parade formation you ran across. They're 2 x 2 for how long? 50m or so depending on the herd. Right?

We all know what kind of a PITA they are to get around. Right?

Now, make em all go single file and how much more of a PITA would THAT be to pass?

Granted, they're going faster than a pack of cyclists, but the idea's the same.

A more compact lump of anything is easier to pass than a strung out line.

...and...

I came across a coupla cop cars and a black Suburban in the middle of a 4-lane road on tonite's mtn bike ride. 50' down the road was a mangled bicycle.

The W&OD trail crosses a few 'major but not really' roads and it looks like a cyclist got broadsided in/near the crosswalk.

IDK any more details, but be VERY careful out there folks.

M

My point was more thinking on sharing the road rather then excuses on why one can't.

Valid point about being in a group verses long line. Same idea, just different method of going about it. Bunched up would make easier passing, though you would still get into the same problem if the group is long enough. Long line is probably better when there is a bike lane available.
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Old 07-01-2013, 09:52 AM   #2741
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FaxRQ...e_gdata_player

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Old 07-01-2013, 07:22 PM   #2742
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Originally Posted by Digasi View Post
My point was more thinking on sharing the road rather then excuses on why one can't.
...and I keep saying the only reason I don't 'share the road' are other road users. IF I didn't have to keep an ear on oncoming traffic and help them manage where to pass me, I'd ride a lot narrower. Sadly, life has proven that other road users NEED the help managing their use of the road around cyclists.

I really wish I didn't have to constantly wonder if the next car passing me is going to be polite, clueless, or an asshat.

Really. I do!

[qoute]Valid point about being in a group verses long line. Same idea, just different method of going about it. Bunched up would make easier passing, though you would still get into the same problem if the group is long enough. Long line is probably better when there is a bike lane available.[/QUOTE]Finally! Someone 'gets it.' A group (8+ bicyclists) IS actually safer in a clump despite all the 'those cyclists are assholes 'cause they're blocking traffic' types.

M
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Old 07-01-2013, 07:26 PM   #2743
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On another note: one of the local women cyclists was hit Sat evening crossing Sunrise Valley Rd. where the W&OD trail crosses. I'd say she was in the crosswalk and got hit. Who was at fault?

I saw the aftermath of a black Suburban with a bike 50'+ in front of it in a mangled heap.

IDK how it happened specifically, but all y'all be careful, OK?

M
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Old 07-02-2013, 12:06 AM   #2744
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Originally Posted by Gummee! View Post
On another note: one of the local women cyclists was hit Sat evening crossing Sunrise Valley Rd. where the W&OD trail crosses. I'd say she was in the crosswalk and got hit. Who was at fault?

I saw the aftermath of a black Suburban with a bike 50'+ in front of it in a mangled heap.

IDK how it happened specifically, but all y'all be careful, OK?

M
I am always on highest alert at trail crossings, children just don't pay attention, and adults often ride, jog, walk with headphones and are in their own little world.

We are just outside suburbia and surrounded by trails, some crossings have stoplights, yet many users still just proceed without looking..............
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Old 07-02-2013, 06:42 AM   #2745
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I am always on highest alert at trail crossings, children just don't pay attention, and adults often ride, jog, walk with headphones and are in their own little world.

We are just outside suburbia and surrounded by trails, some crossings have stoplights, yet many users still just proceed without looking..............
Yup. Some folks have the 'I'm in a crosswalk. Suck it bitches!' mentality. Too bad they can end up 'dead right' by riding/walking/running/blading in front of a moving vehicle.

M
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