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Old 07-10-2013, 06:21 PM   #2821
mrt10x
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Originally Posted by windmill View Post
So your saying a cyclist can change lanes from the shoulder to travel lane without yielding to traffic? That's insane, no vehicle may merge without yielding.
That is exactly what I am saying.. the bicyclist rides on the shoulder as a courtesy, the reality is that legally he has the right to the lane directly to his left... a car behind him should know that and take it into account as they approach the cyclist... now if you are not careful with this a cyclist will probably not last long on the road.. but the concept is valid.

Again if he was in a separate dedicated bike lane..then it doesnt apply. But otherwise the vehicles from the rear were overtaking at too great a speed to avoid an accident. They needed to be prepared to yield to the cyclist.
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Old 07-10-2013, 06:29 PM   #2822
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Originally Posted by mrt10x View Post
That is exactly what I am saying.. the bicyclist rides on the shoulder as a courtesy, the reality is that legally he has the right to the lane directly to his left... a car behind him should know that and take it into account as they approach the cyclist... now if you are not careful with this a cyclist will probably not last long on the road.. but the concept is valid.
Anything to the right of the white line is not considered roadway.

As a cyclist, I'm entitled to my part of the roadway. I ride to the right of the white line (when there is one) out of courtesy. If there's a ton of crap/broken pavement/etc over there, I'm taking my place in the roadway. I'll signal my intention if there's someone coming, but I AM moving over. I'm not ruining $1k of wheels and tires to 'stay out of the way.'

...and it still isn't the cyclist's fault that the car was driving the way it was driving. Mind you, I'm not saying the cyclist didn't have a part to play in the trouble, but like any other multi-vehicle accident, its the responsibility of the overtaking/following driver to ensure there's enough room in case of emergency.

Rear end someone? Your fault just about automatically. Ask any cop.

M
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Old 07-10-2013, 06:36 PM   #2823
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isnt that what I said??
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Old 07-10-2013, 06:50 PM   #2824
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I have personally witnessed a cyclists bad decision causing an accident, bad road users can endanger others. Anybody who doesn't understand this should stay off the road.
I have personally witnessed a steady string of car and truck drivers bad decisions causing untold mayhem,and they are driving a weapon on wheels.
Its in the news every night,even with 4 layers of airbags and padded everything in the car,they still splatter themselves all over the nation's hiways taking who knows who with them.

Driving here is considered a right,only to be taken away when you can no longer see past the dashboard.
Then you figure in road rage and hatred of anything smaller then you and your big macho rig,and there are problems on the road,plain and simple.
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Old 07-10-2013, 06:59 PM   #2825
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I have been watching this for 187 pages. What a simple question the OP made and how it how it has turned into a vitriolic diatribe (on both sides).

I live near Thousand Oaks, CA where Amgen is located. This is the 1st year the Amgen Tour de CA has not ended in Westlake.

I live in a cyclist mecca - great weather (all year round), great terrain, and country roads.

I find the cyclist quite neighborly.

Just my $0.02.
I know what you mean,some people hate bikes and on the internet they are some bad mofo's,in real life they probably dont fart without their wife's permission.

And some bicycle riders can be snobbish,Ive ridden bicycles and motorcycles since I was small and cant see what all the vitriolic diatribe is about. People need to vent I guess.
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Old 07-10-2013, 07:31 PM   #2826
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..."taking a lane" is a legal and proper action for a cyclist, but its not an unconditional right of way to be exercised without warning or discretion.
I don't think that anyone here implying that pulling into a lane should be done without warning or descretion.
OTH, if the closest care is say, a 1/4 mile back does that mean the cyclist is supposed to yield until there are no cars visible? On many roads that won't ever happen.
Presuming the car is running at a reasonable speed for the situation, I'd signal and move into the lane to do what I need to do (a left turn, for example).
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Old 07-10-2013, 07:52 PM   #2827
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gummee! View Post
Anything to the right of the white line is not considered roadway.

As a cyclist, I'm entitled to my part of the roadway. I ride to the right of the white line (when there is one) out of courtesy. If there's a ton of crap/broken pavement/etc over there, I'm taking my place in the roadway. I'll signal my intention if there's someone coming, but I AM moving over. I'm not ruining $1k of wheels and tires to 'stay out of the way.'

...and it still isn't the cyclist's fault that the car was driving the way it was driving. Mind you, I'm not saying the cyclist didn't have a part to play in the trouble, but like any other multi-vehicle accident, its the responsibility of the overtaking/following driver to ensure there's enough room in case of emergency.

Rear end someone? Your fault just about automatically. Ask any cop.

M
Key point here.

If you just suddenly move over to the car traffic lane without a signal, not only are you just being a fool, but you are legally at risk of being wrong. No different than changing lanes in a car/bike.

Jim
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Old 07-10-2013, 08:02 PM   #2828
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Originally Posted by JimVonBaden View Post
Key point here.

If you just suddenly move over to the car traffic lane without a signal, not only are you just being a fool, but you are legally at risk of being wrong. No different than changing lanes in a car/bike.

Jim
Yes and no.

Yes you're a fool, but IIRC the laws (I'll ask my buddy the cop to be sure) will say its still the car's fault for hitting you from behind. No different than any other rear-ender collision. YOU didn't leave enough room for the cyclist.

I'd rather be predictable, signal my intentions, etc than dart out into traffic. Unfortunately, not everyone gets that same memo.

M
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Old 07-10-2013, 08:04 PM   #2829
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Originally Posted by filmfan View Post
I don't think that anyone here implying that pulling into a lane should be done without warning or descretion.
OTH, if the closest care is say, a 1/4 mile back does that mean the cyclist is supposed to yield until there are no cars visible? On many roads that won't ever happen.
Presuming the car is running at a reasonable speed for the situation, I'd signal and move into the lane to do what I need to do (a left turn, for example).
For left turns, I'm all the way on the left side of the lane. I've still gotten passed on my left WITH MY ARM OUT singalling that I'm turning too!



Good thing I did a quick 'over the shoulder' check to make sure that the car I was hearing was going to slow down. She didn't. Probably hadn't a clue that she darn near ran over 3 cyclists.

M
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Old 07-10-2013, 11:10 PM   #2830
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Originally Posted by mrt10x View Post
That is exactly what I am saying.. the bicyclist rides on the shoulder as a courtesy, the reality is that legally he has the right to the lane directly to his left... a car behind him should know that and take it into account as they approach the cyclist... now if you are not careful with this a cyclist will probably not last long on the road.. but the concept is valid.

Again if he was in a separate dedicated bike lane..then it doesnt apply. But otherwise the vehicles from the rear were overtaking at too great a speed to avoid an accident. They needed to be prepared to yield to the cyclist.
I have to call total BS on this,

if a cyclist is traveling on the shoulder to the right of the white line, common sense and logic dictates that is his "lane". Its completely unrealistic to expect traffic traveling on a 50 mph limit road to slow for a bicycle riding on the shoulder because he might choose to enter the travel lane from the shoulder without warning.


Here in Washington state, bicycles are allowed on most of the interstate system, Do you seriously expect motorists to slow for them there too?
On residential roads? on low speed back roads? on low speed urban streets? yes, motorists should be prepared to safely avoid cyclists and non vehicular users. On high speed arterials or interstates? no way, that's simply an irresponsible assumption.

Any vehicle operating on a public road outside the parameters of normal traffic flow is obligated to do so in a manner that allows other users to safely and lawfully react to their presence.

"taking the lane" must be done with some common sense, not as an absolute right.
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Old 07-11-2013, 03:56 AM   #2831
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Originally Posted by Gummee! View Post
Yes and no.

Yes you're a fool, but IIRC the laws (I'll ask my buddy the cop to be sure) will say its still the car's fault for hitting you from behind. No different than any other rear-ender collision. YOU didn't leave enough room for the cyclist.

I'd rather be predictable, signal my intentions, etc than dart out into traffic. Unfortunately, not everyone gets that same memo.

M
I'm pretty sure if you slammed on your brakes in the middle of the road for no reason that the guy who hit you would not be ticketed. Same principal.

In either case, might may not make right, but the law of gross tonnage will always win!

Jim
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Old 07-11-2013, 05:45 AM   #2832
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Originally Posted by windmill View Post
"taking the lane" must be done with some common sense, not as an absolute right.
I agree with this, but there IS a right to the lane. Regardless of whether there's a shoulder or not, cyclists get the rightmost portion of the roadway itself.

Being an asshat and diving into the lane isn't a good way to have a long cycling career. I've been riding for 20+ years now and experience has shown me that if you act (mostly) like a car, there's less hassles over all.

There's usually signs that someone's going to dive over: looking over their shoulder, weaving about in the lane trying to see what's coming, etc. Its tougher with people with mirrors on their bars, but there's still movement.

Its not *usually* a completely random event when people dive into the lane. Just like watching what the cars' wheels that are around you are doing on your MC, bicycle wheels will move first before anything else moves. More accurately, the cyclist's hips will move before anything else, but that's harder to see from a car.

M
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Old 07-11-2013, 05:51 AM   #2833
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A car pulling from the side of the road could be anticipated to "going to do that" but they still have to give way.

The vehicle entering the road has to give way. That is the road rule anywhere in the world.
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Old 07-11-2013, 06:30 AM   #2834
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A car pulling from the side of the road could be anticipated to "going to do that" but they still have to give way.

The vehicle entering the road has to give way. That is the road rule anywhere in the world.
The vehicle is not entering the road.. it is already there... the bicyclist "owns" the lane he is riding to the right of.. he is not merging, or entering, or anything except moving farther to the left of a lane he already legally occupies.

The law of gross tonnage argument comes up every time, and it is a logical fallacy known as affirming the consequent... If A then B, B therefore A... the fact that I will lose a battle with a car on my bike,, has absolutely no bearing on the right or wrong. Yes the end result will be that I am right, and dead, or in the hospital, but that does not make my actions wrong. A semantics argument, maybe, but that is what this thread had devolved into... hence my previous point, about just not getting it.

Gummee has the patience of Job as far as I am concerned, I pop into these threads on occasion and see the exact same discussions.. ground hog day 101.
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Old 07-11-2013, 06:35 AM   #2835
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Originally Posted by mrt10x View Post
[FONT=Helvetica]The vehicle is not entering the road.. it is already there... the bicyclist "owns" the lane he is riding to the right of.. he is not merging, or entering, or anything except moving farther to the left of a lane he already legally occupies.
Sorry I was meaning if the vehicle entering was out of the lane on the other side of the white line. The line marks the edge of the lane.
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