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Old 10-31-2013, 09:07 AM   #3661
LittleRedToyota
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Originally Posted by Earth Rider View Post
I understand blind corners and such, but can't quite figure how you'd get a bicycle in a car's blind spot in a way that would cause an accident.
one common (around here, at least) example: the bicycle is passing stopped/slow moving cars on the right. this is particularly problematic at intersections where the lead car might very well be waiting for a gap in cross traffic to turn right on red or from a stop sign.

car turns right. bicycle runs into passenger door. the bicycle caused that accident.
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Old 11-03-2013, 05:00 PM   #3662
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Originally Posted by LittleRedToyota View Post
car turns right. bicycle runs into passenger door. the bicycle caused that accident.
That's pretty atypical IME. IME the car passes the cyclist then immediately turns into a c-store, parking lot, street etc. The classic 'right hook.' BTDT

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Old 11-03-2013, 05:28 PM   #3663
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Rewinding a few days... from another forum I post on:

I was riding out on a country road last week and a dog chased me and bit my shoe, wrecked the buckle, and ripped the shoe cover. I called the county sheriff. Sheriff came, animal control came. I wasn't injured, didn't break the skin, was very lucky. Kept the bike up and got up to 27 mph in my effort to outrun the dog, a big Boxer. Owner issued a citation by the police, there is a court date. The dog has chased me and others before, and I called the police before. They had been called about the same dog by others. Anybody ever have this happen and what happens next in court?

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Old 11-03-2013, 05:33 PM   #3664
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.... Anybody ever have this happen and what happens next in court?

M
Hopefully they put the owner down...
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Old 11-03-2013, 07:29 PM   #3665
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Hopefully they put the owner down...
That was one of the recommendations in the thread.

Dog's being a dog. Too bad it has a stupid owner.

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Old 11-04-2013, 08:55 AM   #3666
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That's pretty atypical IME. IME the car passes the cyclist then immediately turns into a c-store, parking lot, street etc. The classic 'right hook.' BTDT
and in that case, the car driver is 100% at fault. i'm sure that happens too often (even once is too often...and i have also seen that happen around here as well).

but, if you come to pittsburgh (and, i'm sure many other cities), you'll also see cyclists routinely passing on the right between the traffic lane and parked cars when traffic is stopped at a stop sign or stop light. and once in awhile, the car at the front of the line is turning right and...bam! (which answers earth rider's question of how you get a bicycle into the blind spot of a car and have it be the bicycle's fault).

the fact that both of those types of "right-hooks" do happen...and that one is entirely the car driver's fault while the other is entirely the bicyclist's fault show exactly why that type of "the car driver is automatically at fault" laws that were posted earlier are idiotic, unfair, and counterproductive (in that they encourage lack of personal responsibility).

decisions and actions, not vehicle type (or even lack of vehicle), determine who is at fault in reality.
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Old 11-04-2013, 07:54 PM   #3667
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Originally Posted by LittleRedToyota View Post
and in that case, the car driver is 100% at fault. i'm sure that happens too often (even once is too often...and i have also seen that happen around here as well).

but, if you come to pittsburgh (and, i'm sure many other cities), you'll also see cyclists routinely passing on the right between the traffic lane and parked cars when traffic is stopped at a stop sign or stop light. and once in awhile, the car at the front of the line is turning right and...bam! (which answers earth rider's question of how you get a bicycle into the blind spot of a car and have it be the bicycle's fault).

the fact that both of those types of "right-hooks" do happen...and that one is entirely the car driver's fault while the other is entirely the bicyclist's fault show exactly why that type of "the car driver is automatically at fault" laws that were posted earlier are idiotic, unfair, and counterproductive (in that they encourage lack of personal responsibility).

decisions and actions, not vehicle type (or even lack of vehicle), determine who is at fault in reality.
With a little more attention being paid to what's around you and less attention being paid to the phone, there's very few times when a driver of a car *should* be surprised.

I know *I* was taught to scan mirrors when I was taking driver's ed 'back when.' IDK what's being taught these days, but there's been an overall decline in driving skills.

M
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Old 11-04-2013, 08:34 PM   #3668
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Originally Posted by Gummee! View Post
With a little more attention being paid to what's around you and less attention being paid to the phone, there's very few times when a driver of a car *should* be surprised.

I know *I* was taught to scan mirrors when I was taking driver's ed 'back when.' IDK what's being taught these days, but there's been an overall decline in driving skills.

M
so, what saying is: if person A does something illegal, unsafe, and selfish, person B has a responsibility to make sure that person A can do so without getting hurt. and if something bad happens, it's person B's fault for not ensuring that person A could act illegally, unsafely, and selfishly without any consequences?

i disagree.
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Old 11-04-2013, 08:43 PM   #3669
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Originally Posted by LittleRedToyota View Post
so, what saying is: if person A does something illegal, unsafe, and selfish, person B has a responsibility to make sure that person A can do so without getting hurt. and if something bad happens, it's person B's fault for not ensuring that person A could act illegally, unsafely, and selfishly without any consequences?

i disagree.
I'd like to know the percentage of rider induced crashes with other vehicles(where the rider was at fault). I'd also like to see the stats on motorcycle rider induced crashes with other vehicles(where the rider was at fault).

If you don't know whats around your cage you aren't driving it, even though you're behind the wheel.
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Old 11-05-2013, 06:00 AM   #3670
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Originally Posted by LittleRedToyota View Post
so, what saying is: if person A does something illegal, unsafe, and selfish, person B has a responsibility to make sure that person A can do so without getting hurt. and if something bad happens, it's person B's fault for not ensuring that person A could act illegally, unsafely, and selfishly without any consequences?

i disagree.
The consequences for the cyclist are MUCH higher than for the driver of any wheeled vehicle regardless of who's at fault.

If you KNOW you're driving in/near a heavily bicycle-trafficed area, doesn't it make sense to do one (or two) last checks before turning? Even if you're not 'at fault' you're still involved in something that's going to ruin your day.

M
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Old 11-05-2013, 06:18 AM   #3671
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Why can't the bicycle riders, ride more defensively? I bet if more bicycle rider actually followed traffic rule, there would be less problems and crashes.
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Old 11-05-2013, 10:59 AM   #3672
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Why can't the bicycle riders, ride more defensively? I bet if more bicycle rider actually followed traffic rule, there would be less problems and crashes.
The same could be said for all road users, but I'd like to substitute the word courteously in for defensively. Defensive driving seems to be practiced by the ones too afraid to accelerate into a gap in traffic, thus holding up everyone behind them.

I've been run off the road and yelled at while on a bicycle even though I was already less than a foot from the edge of the pavement. I've almost broadsided drivers turning both left and right in front of me on bicycles, motorcycles and while driving a car. I've nearly hit bicycles and motorcycles with a car when they decided to pass on the left or right, despite my turn signal indicating that it might be a bad idea to do so. I've nearly clipped a motorcycle while merging because I didn't notice it in my side mirror 'til I was half a lane over. I'd swear that it came out of nowhere except that we were running nearly the same speed so it had to be that I missed it when I checked my mirror. Thankfully I was watching my mirror as I tried to merge and was able to move back to my original lane. I guess the point is that mistakes will always be made, but intentionally putting ones self in a potentially bad position is rude and doesn't make much sense, regardless of your mode of transportation.

The one thing which is becoming more common is group rides on bicycles running 2 or 3 wide and not allowing anyone room to pass. I got stuck behind a group going 10 MPH in a 35 at rush hour last summer. There was a mile of empty road ahead of them and a mile of cars behind them. Back when I was riding road a few times a week (20 years ago), we ran single file and only went two wide to drop from the lead position when there weren't any cars coming up behind us. I'm not sure where this new strategy came from, but it is worse than getting behind a motorcycle group ride. At least they are closer to the speed limit. I see the fast groups still riding single file so this whole lane approach seems to be more isolated to the less sporting riders who are too busy talking to really pedal hard; around here, at least.
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Old 11-05-2013, 12:26 PM   #3673
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Originally Posted by Gummee! View Post
The consequences for the cyclist are MUCH higher than for the driver of any wheeled vehicle regardless of who's at fault.
all the more reason for bicyclists (and motorcyclists) to be extremely responsible and defensive in how they (we) ride.

and completely irrelevant as to who actually caused the crash and, thus, completely irrelevant to who should be legally at fault.

Quote:
If you KNOW you're driving in/near a heavily bicycle-trafficed area, doesn't it make sense to do one (or two) last checks before turning? Even if you're not 'at fault' you're still involved in something that's going to ruin your day.

M
i do. i don't want to run anyone over/hit anyone, even if they are a self-centered tool.

but, if it happens and it was the other guy's fault, i should suffer no penalty as a result. the other guy should. he made the choice...he should bear the consequences. it's simple. it's natural. it's rational. it's fair. it makes the world a better place (because eventually people will stop doing stupid, selfish shit if doing stupid, selfish shit causes them pain. if, on the other hand, that pain is transferred onto someone else, then there is no incentive for the person to stop doing stupid, selfish shit...which means the world ends up having more people doing more stupid, selfish shit).

fault should be legally, morally, ethically, etc. assigned entirely by who was at fault...not by vulnerability, not based on emotion, not based on some vague concept of a "greater good" (as defined by who knows who based on who knows what value system).

individuals not having to bear the consequences of their own choices and actions--i.e. social diffusion of responsibility--is destroying us. it's wrong, it's unfair, it's unnatural, it's counterproductive, and it makes the world a worse place.
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Old 11-05-2013, 07:18 PM   #3674
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Originally Posted by LittleRedToyota View Post
all the more reason for bicyclists (and motorcyclists) to be extremely responsible and defensive in how they (we) ride.

and completely irrelevant as to who actually caused the crash and, thus, completely irrelevant to who should be legally at fault.

i do. i don't want to run anyone over/hit anyone, even if they are a self-centered tool.

but, if it happens and it was the other guy's fault, i should suffer no penalty as a result. the other guy should. he made the choice...he should bear the consequences. it's simple. it's natural. it's rational. it's fair. it makes the world a better place (because eventually people will stop doing stupid, selfish shit if doing stupid, selfish shit causes them pain. if, on the other hand, that pain is transferred onto someone else, then there is no incentive for the person to stop doing stupid, selfish shit...which means the world ends up having more people doing more stupid, selfish shit).

fault should be legally, morally, ethically, etc. assigned entirely by who was at fault...not by vulnerability, not based on emotion, not based on some vague concept of a "greater good" (as defined by who knows who based on who knows what value system).

individuals not having to bear the consequences of their own choices and actions--i.e. social diffusion of responsibility--is destroying us. it's wrong, it's unfair, it's unnatural, it's counterproductive, and it makes the world a worse place.
Nice utopian view. Too bad the world doesn't actually work like that.

Say a kid runs out into traffic chasing a ball and you don't see him in time and clobber him into next week. Kid's at fault 'cause he didn't check traffic before darting out in front of you. ...but guess who's getting the ticket? It ain't the kid.

Laws aren't fair, they're designed to protect people from themselves. ...and yes, that includes both drivers and cyclists.

I know what *I'd* do in the situation mentioned above (passing someone that's got a right turn signal on) and it ain't 'go around em on the right!' Its 'go around em on the left.' I know sure as doG made little green apples that the brain-dead zombie behind the wheel isn't looking behind em any more, they're thinking about their mochalatteccino at Whorebux just up ahead on the right.

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Old 11-05-2013, 07:25 PM   #3675
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Originally Posted by markk9 View Post
Why can't the bicycle riders, ride more defensively? I bet if more bicycle rider actually followed traffic rule, there would be less problems and crashes.
Actually, its worse if you ride 'defensively.' People try to squeeze you off the road. They pass in unsafe spots. They basically don't give a rat's behind about you other than 'you're in my way.'

'The best defense is a good offense' is probably the best way to think about it: ride where you can be seen. Ride so that you can't be squeezed off the road. Ride so that they see you and miss you.

Tell ya what: try following all the traffic laws on your moto the same way you're asking a cyclist to ride and see what happens. I'll bet you'll be surprised at exactly how rude your fellow road-users are.

M
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