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Old 12-31-2013, 05:44 PM   #3826
WVhillbilly
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Be safe, stay alert and happy 2014
This, always.

Because if you are on two wheels you are at best invisible and at worst a target.
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Old 12-31-2013, 07:08 PM   #3827
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Originally Posted by Center-stand View Post
If you are not supposed to cross the fog line then why was the cyclist over there? If what is on the out side of the fog line is a shoulder, then it is clearly unmarked. No bike lane. If the cyclist is riding on the highway he needs to obey the traffic laws.

Your antagonistic approach shows your true colors. You have no interest in what is right or wrong, you just like to talk to hear your head rattle. The use of laughing emoticons doesn't make your statements funny, unless you think bicycle safety is a joke.

Apparently you think cyclists are not bound by the same laws as the rest of us. That must come under those "rights" that have been mentioned a couple of times in recent posts. For anybody in a cage or on a motorcycle, highway use is a privilege that can be revoked if we break too many laws too many times, but being on a bicycle makes you special.

..
My true colors?

Admit it, you just have issues with cyclists in general don't you?
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Old 12-31-2013, 07:13 PM   #3828
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Originally Posted by slugsmasher View Post
Motorists would benefit from more knowledge of cyclist allowances in local laws.


Be safe, stay alert and happy 2014.
That would make so many heads explode...






Happy New Year you bunch of pedal files!
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Old 12-31-2013, 07:54 PM   #3829
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Originally Posted by dolomoto View Post
A bit of common courtesy and respect for the vulnerable road users is somehow lost on some folks. With veiled threats of self fulfilling prophecies, they shrewdly cast aspersions seemingly based solely on the relative mass of their vehicle.

There is enough road room for everyone and most of the time it only "costs" a minute or two, a paltry price to bear to keep from maiming/killing another human.
If you're referring to what I posted, you're way off the mark.
I was simply offering a possible explanation to Gummees question, that some cyclists press their "rights" to the point of being counterproductive, or being in conflict with other rules or laws.

I also posted,
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Originally Posted by windmill View Post
That's why I don't call him names or pass judgment when I disagree, much of what he says is reasonable and educational, it just seems that at times his posts become cluttered with too much biased static.
In regards to your statement about time, I agree there is no excuse to harm someone and a conscientious cyclist shouldn't have to worry about what others may do when they must enter the flow of traffic.

That said,
In the real world, common sense dictates that only a self centered fool thinks they have the right to determine the value of other folks time with the expectation that there will be no negative consequences.
All users have rights, needs, and desires that conflict with others, its the obligation of all users to endeavor to minimize their negative impact.

We should make our choices based on how things actually are for everybody, not how we think they should be as an individual.
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Old 12-31-2013, 08:08 PM   #3830
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Originally Posted by bwalsh View Post
That would make so many heads explode...

As would the realization that no right or restriction is absolute, or may be used as an excuse to preempt the rights or restrictions of others.
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Old 01-01-2014, 05:41 AM   #3831
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Ok this says some of the same if you are on the road but also states that a cyclist may ride on the sidewalk. In the state of WA the sidewalk is any area outside of the roadway:

Quote:
46.04.540
Sidewalk.
"Sidewalk" means that property between the curb lines or the lateral lines of a roadway and the adjacent property, set aside and intended for the use of pedestrians or such portion of private property parallel and in proximity to a public highway and dedicated to use by pedestrians.

Using this definition then the shoulder of a highway without a curb is a sidewalk. The fog line defines the road boundary. So basically when a cyclist is in the shoulder without a "traditional" curbed pedestrian sidewalk then the cyclist is a pedestrian at that point, road rules no longer apply unless you are crossing back into it.
I am not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV, but I don't think the rule you quoted says the shoulder is a sidewalk in a legal sense.
The key phrase is "set aside and intended for the use of pedestrians". The road shoulder is probably there to protect the road surface pavement not as a set-aside for pedestrians.

For example, presumably running or parking a motor vehicle on a sidewalk is not legal, but I'd not expect to be ticketed for parking on the shoulder, or driving along the shoulder when it was inappropriate to be on the roadway for some reason.

Riding on the shoulder doesn't automatically turn you into a pedestrian, though from what you've quoted, riding on a sidewalk, would.

At least that's my interpretation, FWIW.

filmfan screwed with this post 01-01-2014 at 05:48 AM
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Old 01-01-2014, 06:11 AM   #3832
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Originally Posted by air-cooled View Post
I can't speak for traffic rules in your country but the picture clearly shows a line for cars and a separate path for the cyclist.
I wouldn't stop neither.

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I probably wouldn't stop either, but I'd certainly slow down to make sure someone's not riding the fog line. In the same situation, I'd keep moving 'cause stopping to confront anyone is 1. a waste of time and b. more dangerous than continuing to keep moving.

...and I'd smile and wave at the idiot in the car too. Probably yell something back like 'I love you too!' They're looking for you to get as angry as they are. Don't let *them* control *your* emotions.

M
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Old 01-01-2014, 07:21 AM   #3833
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Originally Posted by bwalsh View Post

Admit it, you just have issues with cyclists in general don't you?
I will admit that there are many operators on the road that cause frustration, but I am not driven to act upon frustration by being aggressive or discourteous to those who frustrate me. I am of retirement age, and have mellowed over the years. City streets, interstate highways, two lane country roads, I will give way to the the more obnoxious, careless, reckless, aggressive drivers or riders that think they are the only one on the road that matters.

Unlike some on this site, I am able to see two sides to most unpleasant interactions between drivers and riders. The fact that I tend to point out that cyclists can be just as annoying as the driver that runs too close when overtaking you, is because I know that in some cases cyclists instigate the issues by purposely holding the road, filtering, using both pedestrian and vehicle paths, and breaking basic laws, just to show that they can. I think that is unsafe first and unfriendly second.

On the subject of that portion of road outside the fog line being sidewalk, I'd have to agree with filmfan. If we assume the wide portion at the intersection is sidewalk then we would have to apply the same reasoning to the 8 or so inches that is outside the same line prior to the intersection. I doubt that anyone would consider that 8 inches a sidewalk.

In the previously mentioned case, what cyclists among you would have not been upset with a cage driver who reversed the situation. Imagine you are sitting in the lane to make a right turn and a cage pulls up on the shoulder and passes you without stopping at the sign.

On a personal note, I think cyclists that morph between pedestrian and vehicle operator are dangerous to themselves and others around them. One thing I can say for sure is cyclists are predictable, in the sense that they are unpredictable. Those of us that are considerate and courteous to them know that we need to be such because we don't know what move they might make next. With everyday riders constantly reinforcing the idea that it is OK to break the most basic of traffic control laws, I doubt that it will get any better.

..
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Old 01-01-2014, 08:06 AM   #3834
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Originally Posted by Center-stand View Post

Unlike some on this site, I am able to see two sides to most unpleasant interactions between drivers and riders. The fact that I tend to point out that cyclists can be just as annoying as the driver that runs too close when overtaking you, is because I know that in some cases cyclists instigate the issues by purposely holding the road, filtering, using both pedestrian and vehicle paths, and breaking basic laws, just to show that they can.



..
You say you see both sides but yet your post is still anti bicycle all the way thru.

In the case we are talking about(not generalizations about bicycles) the cyclist did nothing wrong IMO. If he had 3-4' of pavement on the shoulder to use, whats the big deal?

Isn't that better than being in the right side of the travel lane, slowing traffic the entire time? Traffic moved along at its pace and the bicyclist moved along at his pace. Win, win situation in my book.

The only fly in the ointment was the prick in the cage, who obviously doesn't respect bicycles enough to give them any room, then has to try and punish the rider for not stopping. Unless he is a police officer he shouldn't try to stop or confront anybody. That's a good recipe for getting ones ass kicked, getting charged with road rage, or worse.
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Old 01-01-2014, 11:54 AM   #3835
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Originally Posted by Gummee! View Post
I probably wouldn't stop either, but I'd certainly slow down to make sure someone's not riding the fog line. In the same situation, I'd keep moving 'cause stopping to confront anyone is 1. a waste of time and b. more dangerous than continuing to keep moving.

...and I'd smile and wave at the idiot in the car too. Probably yell something back like 'I love you too!' They're looking for you to get as angry as they are. Don't let *them* control *your* emotions.

M
This raises an interesting question,
Obviously a cyclist riding in or across a travel lane is a "vehicle" and should obey all rules and laws. But on the other hand the shoulder isn't a travel lane except when posted otherwise and motor vehicles are not permitted to use them same as a sidewalk.
It seems to me that a cyclist on the shoulder, like a pedestrian on a sidewalk, when turning a corner without crossing a travel lane is only obligated to yield to other cyclists or pedestrians.

As a city P&D driver, I encounter far more selfish, impatient motorists than a cyclist ever does (and at greater risk). I have learned over the years, ignoring the idiots is the best reaction, like you said, they're only looking to spread their misery and have already decided they're more important than you.
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Old 01-01-2014, 12:17 PM   #3836
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with bwalsh on this one;

it's funny to use a argument some people use in an other topic to point out why it is wrong to judge and have opinions about cyclist behaving pretty normally on the road, like going to the left in front of traffic while the lights are red, or turning right when that route is clear and free of any danger.

a DARKSIDE argument with real life experience, did you try it for yourself how it is to ride a bike in traffic? did anybody get killed or did the sky fall in flames.

i don't like these arguments because they are no arguments, but to ride a cycle by yourself in traffic is easy to do and will open your eyes.you will learn to understand that after waiting 5 min. for somebody to stop to let you cross the road, nobody will and next time you will turn left in front of them when they need to stop for a traffic light.

sensible thing.

i see that cyclist in your area, well i think most,are really conscious about their riding, you can take my word that it can be worse in terms of quantity, more cyclist on the road, and worse in terms of traffic rule behavior. roads can be worse, as in way smaller.
seeing all the available room for participants on the same road, it only takes a bit of accepting that cyclist are there and are using the same road with sometimes the benefits of a really light bike of 10kg with is capable of easy moving trough traffic and people. that is a cycle.


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Old 01-01-2014, 02:11 PM   #3837
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Originally Posted by bwalsh View Post
........ he shouldn't try to stop or confront anybody. That's a good recipe for getting ones ass kicked, getting charged with road rage, or worse.

Which is why I am mellow, considerate and courteous to those who are the more obnoxious, careless, reckless, aggressive drivers or riders that think they are the only one on the road that matters. It doesn't matter who you are or what you pilot, you will deal with the crazies, and some of them are on bicycles.

If you are reading into what I am saying that I am "anti bicycle all the way" I would suggest that I have hit a nerve and you are feeling persecuted.

Look, I could write all day about cage drivers that break the law, you can't get to the mini-mart without seeing some crazy action. There is a red light 3 blocks from my house I would almost bet you can't sit and watch 3 changes without seeing somebody run it. I never depend on green there to mean it's safe to pull out. All that is beside the point.

If I am sitting at a red light and a bike passes me on the right, filtering his way to the front of the line, then when the light changes I pass him in the middle of the next block, he's upset because I was too close. However, the distance between us and the curb or parked cars is the same as when he passed me at the light. The difference in speed is the same, 15 mph to nothing, 30 mph to 15. Do you think I should follow him until the road gets wider, or he morphs into a pedestrian and gets on the sidewalk? You can't have it both ways. I deal with you, you deal with me. If you are on a highway you are going to be passed. Some will give you a lane, some will only give you the space you occupy. Wear a safety vest over your clothing, move to the right when you are certain you have been seen, or uncertain that you have been seen. Either way it's safer.

In the case I mentioned the other day, there are streets parallel to the main street the cyclist was on. I know he came at least two blocks on the main street before turning left. He could have crossed that street sooner and stayed out of the traffic the whole way had he chosen to, instead he came down a four lane street and abruptly turned in front of moving vehicles. I feel confident he couldn't see me until after he was committed to entering the lane I was in. Where he got on the street, it is divided with a median wide enough for cars to sit in, so getting across even without a light is no big deal. I didn't tell that story to be antagonistic toward cyclist, I told that story as an illustration of how cyclists make bad decisions. Decisions that influence the way cagers think about them. He depended on the light giving him safety, but, if he breaks the rules why should he assume I won't? Would you, as a pedestrian, step out 50 or 60 feet in front of a crosswalk because the light had just turned red? Or would you wait for the traffic to stop?

As long as you believe that it's all the cager's fault, nothing will change. Keep making up the rules as you ride so nobody knows what rules you are playing by today.

I will continue to slow when I see you. Lightly tap my horn as I pass, just to make sure you know where I am, and shake my head sadly when I pass a crumpled bike at an accident scene, wondering whose fault it was.

Just for the record, I don't bike as much as I used to, but I am not a complete stranger to riding in traffic, and I don't like it.

..
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Old 01-01-2014, 04:30 PM   #3838
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Old 01-02-2014, 06:33 AM   #3839
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The biggest difference in those two scenarios: if you hit the cyclist doing 30 its going to be a lot worse than him hitting you at 15. AMHIK

If I'm riding in traffic, I don't expect the same amount of room as I do out in the country. Different situations, different expectations. Just make an attempt to miss me and all is good.

I was out appx 3hrs yesterday. Had a few close-ish passes. Nothing that got really close, but when there's an entire other lane to use, effing use it. There really weren't all that many people on the road yesterday so there was no 'need' to be an a-hole other than just being an a-hole.

Passed an RT and a 950A out on my ride. 'Waved' at both. Got a wave back from both.

M
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Old 01-02-2014, 11:17 AM   #3840
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Pissed

Some people think they'll go to prison or something if they pass on a double yellow. Even without oncoming traffic they won't pass a mailman or garbage truck. So a bicycle they'll squeeze by.
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