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Old 07-22-2013, 12:17 AM   #376
PSYCHO II
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ciedema View Post
FIM, MA, many other motorsport bodies, many US states along with Canadian Federal and Provincial governments accept DOT and Snell M2005 and M2010 certified helmets and somehow we can't? It just doesn't stand up.

Appendix 1 of the MA motorsport rules (see here) is a far better written document that what is currently in the Queensland or NSW Road Rules. Not only does it specify suitable helmet standards it covers proper fitment.
They are for use in an activity NOT for sale, "Consumer Law", in a country. I have already covered the "laws of physics" and how legal boundaries do not influence those laws. The same should go for lobby groups. Why do we need one for each State? Are they working with their National body? Does the National body have a position statement on helmets? Is there a problem? Is there an issue?

Just a few questions, that should be answered, before some people put their hands up for highly paid consultancy work.
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Old 07-22-2013, 12:53 AM   #377
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You have not put forward your reasoning and the web site you are linking to is 5 years out of date, it does not cover the 2012 amendments to the NSW road rules, it is the 2012 rules which are the rules which make the legality questionable and which need some rational analysis

Re the State lobby groups yes we are a little parochial but yes the state groups liaise with federal group and federal is addressing the issue
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Old 07-22-2013, 02:14 AM   #378
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Bumped into a fella up at Kulnura coffee stop and he said he has a mate that produces the Australian standard sticker for helmets and so he went and bought a high end helmet that passes the test in Oz for a lot less than what they want here.
This is the problem folks. We are a 1st world country that has a backwater sized population and so we pay the price.
If you would rather live in the US, go right ahead. For me, I will keep paying the price.
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Old 07-22-2013, 02:19 AM   #379
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Originally Posted by WayneC1 View Post
You have not put forward your reasoning and the web site you are linking to is 5 years out of date, it does not cover the 2012 amendments to the NSW road rules, it is the 2012 rules which are the rules which make the legality questionable and which need some rational analysis

Re the State lobby groups yes we are a little parochial but yes the state groups liaise with federal group and federal is addressing the issue
The website is not 5 years out of date. Where did you come up with that bullshit. You have no idea.

Show me where you have this aging. Five years??? Give me a break. Get real... Smell the roses.

PSYCHO II screwed with this post 07-22-2013 at 02:26 AM
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Old 07-22-2013, 02:39 AM   #380
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Originally Posted by itchy&scratchy View Post
Bumped into a fella up at Kulnura coffee stop and he said he has a mate that produces the Australian standard sticker for helmets and so he went and bought a high end helmet that passes the test in Oz for a lot less than what they want here.
This is the problem folks. We are a 1st world country that has a backwater sized population and so we pay the price.
If you would rather live in the US, go right ahead. For me, I will keep paying the price.
And the price is actually cheaper when you shop around. Caveat Emptor, let the buyer beware, and so you shop. I can buy some helmets cheaper in Australia than overseas. Generally when I look at a helmet to SNELL standard I have paid for a licence irrelevant to this country. It has been certified to that standard, and the fee paid, with no refund for the standard not applicable to this country.

The additional 1698 standard did not add on to the cost but rather my inability to remove the additional SNELL cost added but unnecessary to the validation requirement. Overseas requirements add to the cost, get real about everything else!
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Old 07-22-2013, 03:03 AM   #381
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Originally Posted by PSYCHO II View Post
And the price is actually cheaper when you shop around. Caveat Emptor, let the buyer beware, and so you shop. I can buy some helmets cheaper in Australia than overseas. Generally when I look at a helmet to SNELL standard I have paid for a licence irrelevant to this country. It has been certified to that standard, and the fee paid, with no refund for the standard not applicable to this country.

The additional 1698 standard did not add on to the cost but rather my inability to remove the additional SNELL cost added but unnecessary to the validation requirement. Overseas requirements add to the cost, get real about everything else!
Bullshit it's cheaper.

Provide some evidence as to cheaper?

Then tell me how a schuberth is cheaper IF YOU CAN'T BUY IT HERE AND LEGALLY USE IT???

Seriously mate some of your logic suggests you must work for a govt enterprise. With all respect your arguments go nowhere and never provide solutions.
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Old 07-22-2013, 05:29 AM   #382
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Old 07-22-2013, 08:46 AM   #383
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PSYCHO II View Post
They are for use in an activity NOT for sale, "Consumer Law", in a country. I have already covered the "laws of physics" and how legal boundaries do not influence those laws. The same should go for lobby groups. Why do we need one for each State? Are they working with their National body? Does the National body have a position statement on helmets? Is there a problem? Is there an issue?

Just a few questions, that should be answered, before some people put their hands up for highly paid consultancy work.
Yes, yes I get all that and agree about the lobby group stuff. That still doesn't answer my question - how does allowing the sale of DOT/Snell/ECE/JIS helmets open a Pandora's box?
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Old 07-22-2013, 02:24 PM   #384
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Originally Posted by ciedema View Post
Yes, yes I get all that and agree about the lobby group stuff. That still doesn't answer my question - how does allowing the sale of DOT/Snell/ECE/JIS helmets open a Pandora's box?
Well in post #371 I mentioned the DOT audit process. If product is imported without certification do you not see a problem? They even have a "sticker" in the Philippines. We already have helmets in Australia with other certifications on them they just have another sticker (AS/NZS 1698) on them.

So let's imagine there is a country that permits unregulated imports. If you were the manufacturer and had a "bad batch" of helmets. Would you

(a) Destroy the product

(b) Ship it to the country that permits unregulated imports

How would James Hardie handle it?
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Old 07-22-2013, 03:25 PM   #385
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No one is talking about importing uncertified helmets or unregulated imports. Just a broadening of the allowed certified helemet standards that are allowed to imported. You mention flaws in the DOT audit process, yet this standard is fine for both the US and Canada.

As I understand it is actually legal to import these already, just not to use them on the road. As you have said there is a difference between sale and use. Seems like the sale process is already covered just need to change the rules around use.
BTW you scenario could just as easily happen under a regime that only allows AS helmets. Easy enough to buy a bunch of helmets and put AS stickers on them.

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Quote:
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Old 07-22-2013, 03:44 PM   #386
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Originally Posted by PSYCHO II View Post
Well in post #371 I mentioned the DOT audit process. If product is imported without certification do you not see a problem? They even have a "sticker" in the Philippines. We already have helmets in Australia with other certifications on them they just have another sticker (AS/NZS 1698) on them.

So let's imagine there is a country that permits unregulated imports. If you were the manufacturer and had a "bad batch" of helmets. Would you

(a) Destroy the product

(b) Ship it to the country that permits unregulated imports

How would James Hardie handle it?
Are there any herrings that a glowing red around here?
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Old 07-22-2013, 04:00 PM   #387
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Originally Posted by rmhrc628 View Post
Are there any herrings that a glowing red around here?
Yes the one about Schuberth helmets. Since you love the anomalies then please have a look at the BMW System Helmet 6. Legal in Australia but not the USA.

If you insist on a specific item then you may not be able to buy it cheaper. What I was referring to was a "quality" item.

"Good quality does not necessarily mean high quality. It means a predictable degree of uniformity and dependability at low cost with a quality suited to the market." - Dr. Deming.

So if I am not interested in brand name but use safety related measures I have quite a selection of products on the market. I can use information from CRASH and others to make an informed decision and pay a reasonable price which is often cheaper than I could source from overseas under the current economic conditions.
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Old 07-22-2013, 06:12 PM   #388
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ciedema View Post
No one is talking about importing uncertified helmets or unregulated imports. Just a broadening of the allowed certified helemet standards that are allowed to imported. You mention flaws in the DOT audit process, yet this standard is fine for both the US and Canada.

As I understand it is actually legal to import these already, just not to use them on the road. As you have said there is a difference between sale and use. Seems like the sale process is already covered just need to change the rules around use.
BTW you scenario could just as easily happen under a regime that only allows AS helmets. Easy enough to buy a bunch of helmets and put AS stickers on them.

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Do you think the North American Free Trade Agreement might have something to do with it. Also there a number of Provinces in Canada and they are not all in synch.

Not only would you not be able to use it, you couldn't set up shop and sell it without being certified.

As for the scenario, I agree that anybody falsely certify anything. In the scenario I gave there would be no remedy. At least with the current situation there is consumer protection.
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Old 07-23-2013, 12:08 PM   #389
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Originally Posted by PSYCHO II View Post
In the scenario I gave there would be no remedy. At least with the current situation there is consumer protection.
I seem to have missed something there. How does falsely selling DOT or ECE certified helmets end up with less (no) consumer protection that falsely selling AS ones? Either the product is what it is or it isn't how does consumer law change? Or are you suggesting it is easier to fake DOT (or ECE) certification than it is AS certification.
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Old 07-23-2013, 02:01 PM   #390
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Originally Posted by PSYCHO II View Post
Yes the one about Schuberth helmets. Since you love the anomalies then please have a look at the BMW System Helmet 6. Legal in Australia but not the USA.

If you insist on a specific item then you may not be able to buy it cheaper. What I was referring to was a "quality" item.

"Good quality does not necessarily mean high quality. It means a predictable degree of uniformity and dependability at low cost with a quality suited to the market." - Dr. Deming.

So if I am not interested in brand name but use safety related measures I have quite a selection of products on the market. I can use information from CRASH and others to make an informed decision and pay a reasonable price which is often cheaper than I could source from overseas under the current economic conditions.
More dribble.

Yes you're right schuberth aren't quality, they fall into your 'specific item' legislative category.

The brand name is also never a sign of quality is it according to you.
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