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Old 11-05-2011, 09:18 PM   #16
raider
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxacceleration View Post
One single reason. Weight.
Show me a lighter ADV twin.
Fair enough. What's the difference in weight between the two bikes?
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Old 11-05-2011, 09:30 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raider View Post
Fair enough. What's the difference in weight between the two bikes?
377 vs 407 lbs, claimed.
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Sounds dangerous.
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Old 11-05-2011, 09:35 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raider View Post
Fair enough. What's the difference in weight between the two bikes?
In fact the F650GS is only slightly less weight but has less power (17% less HP, 10% less torque). The bigger issue for offroad is the tire+wheel size, hence you see the OP spending money on suspension upgrades that would have been negated had he just bought the F800 to begin with. There are of course other differences to the models but they are moderate at best.

Horsepower
F800: 85 hp (63 kW) @ 7,500 rpm
F650: 71 hp (53 kW) @ 7,000 rpm

Torque
F800: 83 N·m (61 lb·ft) @ 5,750 rpm
F650: 75 N·m (55 lb·ft) @ 4,500 rpm

F800: Spoked wheels with 90/90 21 front tyre and 150/70 17 rear tyre
F650: Aluminium alloy wheels with 110/80 19 front tyre and 140/80 17 rear tyre

F800: 185 kg (410 lb) (dry)
F650: 179 kg (390 lb) (dry)
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Old 11-05-2011, 10:04 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by themattreid View Post
In fact the F650GS is only slightly less weight but has less power (17% less HP, 10% less torque). The bigger issue for offroad is the tire+wheel size, hence you see the OP spending money on suspension upgrades that would have been negated had he just bought the F800 to begin with. There are of course other differences to the models but they are moderate at best.

Horsepower
F800: 85 hp (63 kW) @ 7,500 rpm
F650: 71 hp (53 kW) @ 7,000 rpm

Torque
F800: 83 N·m (61 lb·ft) @ 5,750 rpm
F650: 75 N·m (55 lb·ft) @ 4,500 rpm

F800: Spoked wheels with 90/90 21 front tyre and 150/70 17 rear tyre
F650: Aluminium alloy wheels with 110/80 19 front tyre and 140/80 17 rear tyre

F800: 185 kg (410 lb) (dry)
F650: 179 kg (390 lb) (dry)
It certainly is debatable matt, with this bike not being the first for increasing travel.
Look where the torque peaks, and I believe the 658 has more torque to a certain rpm.
It is a good off road chugger. I've gone up things I should have not gone up with stock gearing.
I am not down playing the 800 whatsoever.

Yes on the wheels, no doubt a 21 is better up front. The cast wheels do hold up. Depends on if you hit everything or ride with finesse I suppose.
Just a plug kit needed with tubeless...

And I have a one off bike. I always seem to fuss with the bikes I have owned.
Its what we do.

To each his own, eh?
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Horsepower is a distant second to useable torque, unless cafe cruising is the reason for the purchase...
Quote:
Originally Posted by DireWolf
Sounds dangerous.
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Old 11-05-2011, 11:09 PM   #20
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Were there any F650 Dakar parts involved? A 21" wheel is just an old F650 wheel away. Nice mod.
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Old 11-05-2011, 11:20 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxacceleration View Post
And I have a one off bike. I always seem to fuss with the bikes I have owned.
Its what we do.

To each his own, eh?
Indeed, and the answer "because it's what I have in the shed" is behind most custom bike builds.
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Old 11-05-2011, 11:24 PM   #22
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Indeed, and the answer "because it's what I have in the shed" is behind most custom bike builds.
I will second that........

Erling
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Old 11-06-2011, 02:43 AM   #23
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"Thirded."
Within certain limits, it can be cheaper to modify what you've already got ~ than pay the not-inconsiderable change-over costs to a different model. So long as you are intending to keep the bike for a long time.

And there is a certain pleasure in being able to sing, "I did it my way !"

Also, as already noted, there is a lot to be said for tubeless tires.
Semi-knobbly front rubber [110/80-19] can do a good all-round job, especially for someone spending less than 100% of the time on dirt. Superior on the bitumen, of course, and surprisingly good on sand - owing to its extra width and flotation (more important on a heavy bike like this ~ in comparison to a normal lightweight dirt bike, which can manage sand well with a conventional skinny 21-incher).

Yes, there's always compromises and disadvantages as well ~ but I expect you'll have fun anyway.
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Old 11-06-2011, 05:48 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by itsatdm View Post
Were there any F650 Dakar parts involved? A 21" wheel is just an old F650 wheel away. Nice mod.
No Dakar parts. Just longer fork tubes & a 800 base (length) shock.
Thats over simplification, but you get the point.
I am not planning for a 21" wheel at this point. I just have to relearn the bike a little - the ground is farther away now!
So far its all a plus, it slides out of fire road corners well and goes around paved corners well.
I will fiddle with front & rear ride height. I am trying to make it its tallest and still decently plush.
And turn sharp without plowing.

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Horsepower is a distant second to useable torque, unless cafe cruising is the reason for the purchase...
Quote:
Originally Posted by DireWolf
Sounds dangerous.
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Old 11-06-2011, 06:00 AM   #25
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I think there are some advantages of the 658 that many see as a disadvantage. We're talking about an all round bike meant to go the distance and i believe the right side up forks although seen as a disadvantage as actually being an advantage in the long haul. Look at how many have had leaks in the up side down forks as compared with the 658. The weels are said to be weaker but more have ben't the 8 wheels than the 658 (correct tire choise plays a big role here) The 658 runs on regular and does have a peak power disadvantage but who rides all the time at redline? The 658 makes more hp and torque between 4 and 6 grand which is more often where i'm at than redline! Less cam means better fuel economy,and there is the lighter weight and less complex front brake system. All in all i'll take the 658!

oh did you notice a change inn pavment manners with the increase in height?
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Old 11-06-2011, 09:24 AM   #26
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I like it The F650gs probably would have been my chosen bike if I knew it was going to be imported when I ordered my F800gs. I have another bike that does the heavy lifting better.

I can think of a couple of ways Sasquatch did this and waiting to hear the details. Forking by Frank makes longer tubes for damping rod suspension. I would think the F650 Dakar version would be practically a bolt on. Fork tubes from some other donor bikes?, all look like options. They are skinny, expect some flex. Maybe a brace in your future.

As for the strength of the wheel, the wire wheels on the F800 are not exactly noted for their strength. For the the more technical trails on a F800gs suspension mods are a must, and they are expensive. The money difference, certainly can go into better quality suspension. Not all damping rod type suspension is bad.

Pros and cons of tubes vs tubeless. I do not think the ability to run low pressure is a valid arguement in favor of BMW wheels and have the dings to back it up.

21 vs 19? 19" is probably good enough for a bike of this design, depending on where you ride. There are different tire sizes that make the difference even closer.

How much HP do you need? I would have bought a 650 twin if they were any out there in the ADV class.

I think it is a great idea, wish I had done it.
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Old 11-06-2011, 10:04 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxacceleration View Post
Just a plug kit needed with tubeless...

And I have a one off bike. I always seem to fuss with the bikes I have owned.
Its what we do.

To each his own, eh?
I was not aware those were tubeless tires - you bastard! you win, you win!

No doubt your bike is great after the suspension changes. What I was trying to say was that if one were wanting a F650GS or a F800GS - the big difference is the suspension and wheels, one of which you have upgraded to be in line with the F800 (aside from non USD forks anyway). Bike looks great, good work.
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Old 11-06-2011, 03:45 PM   #28
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Remiss of BMW [and indeed most manufacturers] not to offer tubed/tubeless wheel options for "dual-sports".

With so many expensive other options (on an already expensive bike) ~ it seems strange that they don't make such possibilities easily available.
Really, both the F800GS and F650GS should each offer both kinds of wheel, as basic options.

Alas, I fear that non-tubed, non-spoked wheels would have been seen as insufficiently Motocross-Macho for the F800GS image.
Yes, spoked wheels can be taped etcetera, but it's a bit dodgy, and there's a poor range of tubeless tire choices for narrow 21/17/18 rims. For tubeless 19/17 the range is somewhat better, though not perfect.
Be nice to have the choice at bike-buying time. Or even for an easy wheel-swap later.
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Old 11-06-2011, 04:39 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Midnullarbor View Post
Remiss of BMW [and indeed most manufacturers] not to offer tubed/tubeless wheel options for "dual-sports".

With so many expensive other options (on an already expensive bike) ~ it seems strange that they don't make such possibilities easily available.
Really, both the F800GS and F650GS should each offer both kinds of wheel, as basic options.

Alas, I fear that non-tubed, non-spoked wheels would have been seen as insufficiently Motocross-Macho for the F800GS image.
Yes, spoked wheels can be taped etcetera, but it's a bit dodgy, and there's a poor range of tubeless tire choices for narrow 21/17/18 rims. For tubeless 19/17 the range is somewhat better, though not perfect.
Be nice to have the choice at bike-buying time. Or even for an easy wheel-swap later.

The mountain and road bike world has managed to offer tubeless tires on spoked wheels for quite a number of years now and the road ones even manage to hold 120psi, and the mountain bike ones can be run down under 10psi. The technology is there - The motocross/enduro world needs to get their shit together and design some functional tubeless tires and wheels without having to resort to rim taping hassles. The best system I've used so far is the Tubliss, but they are a massive hassle to install. http://www.nuetech.com/

We might as well be discussing EFI in MX - how long has it taken to get that accepted? Ridiculous. Maybe in 2020 we'll see some dealer offered tubeless offroad wheels and tires as stock.
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Old 11-06-2011, 04:54 PM   #30
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I'll try to answer some questions. And my opinion...
Street cornering manners feel good at this point. My initial shake down/test was at 30 degrees. Frozen spots on the road, frozen sand lol (better than hot soft summer sand), clay/slime off road etc.
I didn't get to push as much as I can.
Still its tall like a dirt bike... No problem. I am on TKC's... no problem.
I've cornered all over the place on TKC's - I trust them.
I think it will go well.

The 19" will do for me, but I feel a 21" wheel is superior for sure.
This bike is a handful in the sand (before and now). To me sand handling is helped by raising the rear - not sure exactly where I am at yet.
And whatever weight you want to call it, its heavy on a motocross track! lol
Or single track.
But for PNW forest roads and the like I think it will rock. Carrying gear too.
Fork tubes are by Forking by Frank.
Height on this bike is what you want it to be. You can specify a different length shock I believe (? - not sure on that).
Get the length tubes you want...

This bike ends up being pretty tall. I asked Jay to set it up to ride more in the top half of the stroke, so ground clearance is always more than before.
I didn't want the suspension to settle down into 'lowboy' again.


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Horsepower is a distant second to useable torque, unless cafe cruising is the reason for the purchase...
Quote:
Originally Posted by DireWolf
Sounds dangerous.

Maxacceleration screwed with this post 11-06-2011 at 05:02 PM
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