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Old 03-11-2012, 09:28 PM   #181
IheartmyNx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jasonmt View Post
At this point the only saving grace on a 325#/~25hp 250cc dual sport is that it better be cheap; really, really cheap because while it has the weight of a big bore euro thumper it has not the suspension, power or braking of them.


Whatever.... 26hp, (29hp AX-1) 280lb here...

And people are still shocked at the decisions from the ass hat sitting behind a desk over at Honda NA's Corporate...

I swear it's like Old Faithful, you can set your watch by it.

Honda NA trolled us again... What a shocker.


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Everybody's always talking out the side of their mouths about our "dependency on foreign oil", what about our dependency on cheap china crap? Who exactly again is killing our dollar?

IheartmyNx screwed with this post 03-11-2012 at 10:56 PM
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Old 03-11-2012, 10:13 PM   #182
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I think it will be faster than the AX-1 as it's the same engine that's in the CBR250. HP doesn't mean everything, a lot of it is torque and the ability to rev high.
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Old 03-11-2012, 10:44 PM   #183
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Originally Posted by Llamaha View Post
I think it will be faster than the AX-1 as it's the same engine that's in the CBR250. HP doesn't mean everything, a lot of it is torque and the ability to rev high.

You're right. The EFI alone will be responsible for 20-25% of it's power and mask it's bottom-end as EFI hates to stall... But 55mm of stroke is basically the same as Yammi's 300lb WR250.

Put EFI on a DOHC NX or AX 250's engine and as long as we're talking Dual Sporting here, it still won't be a fair fight.

280lbs Vs. 325.
Bore x Stroke; 70.0 64.8mm Vs 76 x 55mm. Does not a torquie "stroker" it make...


Face it. A LOT of people will buy this because it's made by Honda alone and nothing else, so it's a moot point whether it's the greatest best-est bike in the world.

Hey, that's what they hang the XRL's hopes on.
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Everybody's always talking out the side of their mouths about our "dependency on foreign oil", what about our dependency on cheap china crap? Who exactly again is killing our dollar?

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Old 03-12-2012, 02:47 AM   #184
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Originally Posted by yyz View Post
Canada gets the carb'd KLX. I have a 2009 and the bike has been a real disappointment. I could not wait for the warranty to expire to put in a dynojet kit, the bike ran horribly. If it sits any length of time it refuses to start.


It's been to the dealer several times, with no improvement. The hard starting is not unique to me, check out the forums, I cant wait for the crf250, Honda would not sell a bike with fueling issues. My wife's crf230l with carb always starts right up, even after sitting all winter.

You may have already tried this, but be sure to turn the gas off before you pull in the driveway so you'll have run the carb dry by the time you shut off the key. This was the fix for an XT I owned and seems to be the same way for a buddy's KLX.

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Old 03-12-2012, 03:18 AM   #185
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IheartmyNx View Post
You're right. The EFI alone will be responsible for 20-25% of it's power and mask it's bottom-end as EFI hates to stall... But 55mm of stroke is basically the same as Yammi's 300lb WR250.

Put EFI on a DOHC NX or AX 250's engine and as long as we're talking Dual Sporting here, it still won't be a fair fight.

280lbs Vs. 325.
Bore x Stroke; 70.0 64.8mm Vs 76 x 55mm. Does not a torquie "stroker" it make...


Face it. A LOT of people will buy this because it's made by Honda alone and nothing else, so it's a moot point whether it's the greatest best-est bike in the world.

Hey, that's what they hang the XRL's hopes on.

Dude...

Seriously...

Bore X stroke measurements only tell a very small part of the picture.

Alone they tell you absolutely nothing about how a bike makes its power.

The NX didn't sell very well so Honda dropped it, get over it.

It was a very ordinary bike to begin with and only designed as a commuter anyway.

EFI is cleaner than carbs, not more powerful.

There...

Someone had to say it.
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Old 03-12-2012, 04:55 AM   #186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tHEtREV View Post
Dude...

EFI is cleaner than carbs, not more powerful.

There...

Someone had to say it.
You beat me to it!
I wonder where the misconception comes from that EFI instantly gives you more power?
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Old 03-12-2012, 04:59 AM   #187
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Originally Posted by jesusgatos View Post
bah. hah. phooey. 300llbs+ for ANY 250cc dirtbike or dualsport sucks ass.


Maybe closer to 100% more, but it's at least 5x the bike.
Unless you're talking about Dualsports that you load up with gear and need reliability more than ultimate performance. (isn't that what we're talking about here?)
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Old 03-12-2012, 05:18 AM   #188
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Originally Posted by rivercreep View Post
Unless you're talking about Dualsports that you load up with gear and need reliability more than ultimate performance. (isn't that what we're talking about here?)
Yes I see it this way too, plus the extra weight will help keep the bike stable when it's windy etc. Good bike for traveling, not a good bike for enduro.
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Old 03-12-2012, 05:49 AM   #189
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I call BS that a heavier bike is better in any situation.
Hiway stability has more to do with the suspension setup and bike shape then weight.
I have had light bikes that the wind did not bother, and I have never been in wind high enough to blow me off the road.

What weight DOES sometimes equal is a stronger more robust bike.
I once had a Yamaha it175, fantastic bike, really light, great suspension, lots of power for a 175 (2 stroke).
EVERY singe ride something wore out and broke, there were bigger bearings in skate boards then the IT had for wheel bearings, the brakes were good for only a few rides and the motor needed rebuilding on a monthly basis.

I also had an xl250 which needed nothing but oil changes for years of abuse.

I hate weight in the dirt, but I am unwilling to get something that needs a lot of work all the time.
If I was racing, I would feel different.
If I had to be the fastest guy on the trails and only rode once and a while, I would think different.
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Old 03-12-2012, 05:56 AM   #190
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rivercreep View Post
You beat me to it!
I wonder where the misconception comes from that EFI instantly gives you more power?
It's a fact that efi can give you a broader, more predictable power band. carb and efi are equal when it comes to max power.

the bore vs stroke of an engine is a determining factor in max rpm, torque and volumetric efficiency.
This honda sounds like its going to be poo.
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Old 03-12-2012, 06:54 AM   #191
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tHEtREV View Post
Dude...

Seriously...

Bore X stroke measurements only tell a very small part of the picture.

Alone they tell you absolutely nothing about how a bike makes its power.

The NX didn't sell very well so Honda dropped it, get over it.

It was a very ordinary bike to begin with and only designed as a commuter anyway.

EFI is cleaner than carbs, not more powerful.

There...

Someone had to say it.
I had a 1990 NX250 back in 1991 and can share a bit of info. When the NX250 was introduced EVERYBODY wanted to fly high and go fast. The suspension and wheel sizes were horrible for tire selection. Progressive suspension immediately released better fork springs but there was no solution for the shock.
After a couple of tweaks, it was a great 250 street bike and super quiet. Pretty fast for a 250 too. I had it up to 90+ with ease. The front brake was great as well.
If Honda had put 21" front and 17" rear wheels along with a better shock the bike would have sold in droves.

This new Honda 250 will do just fine if the suspension is true inverted Showa. Independent tuners will be able to make it fly and the weight won't be much of an issue for dual sporting. Lately the manufacturers are doing some strange voodoo by making inverted damper rod forks and even leaving shim cartridges out of one leg or the other. Not good if they pull those stunts.
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Old 03-12-2012, 08:31 AM   #192
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For everyone who's wondering about the power and reliability of the engine in the Honda CRF250L you only have to look at the new Honda CBR250 as it's the same engine in both bikes.

So far the new CBR250 (not to be confused with the fantastic old 4-pot 44hp, 18k redline CBR250RR) has had a mixed track record as far as quality and durability go.

People who are buying them as beginner bikes or as cheap economical commuters seem pretty happy with them.

On the other hand, experienced riders complain about the weight, lack or power and cheap suspension on the new CB'r'250.

Finally, the guys who are racing the CB'r'250 are blowing engines in shocking numbers. Simply put, the new Honda is a bit fragile. Is this the engine you want in your next enduro bike?
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Old 03-12-2012, 08:55 AM   #193
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Originally Posted by rivercreep View Post
You beat me to it!
I wonder where the misconception comes from that EFI instantly gives you more power?
Probably the fact that FI was originally developed for racing--Formula 1 racing, I think. A carburetor has to restrict the intake to create the vacuuum to draw fuel from the bowl into the airstream to vaporize. FI needs no such restriction because the fuel is pressurized and vaporized by a mechanical or electrical pump.
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Old 03-12-2012, 10:06 AM   #194
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyBKK View Post
Finally, the guys who are racing the CB'r'250 are blowing engines in shocking numbers. Simply put, the new Honda is a bit fragile. Is this the engine you want in your next enduro bike?
I've got a CBR250R and frequent the forums. I know of only one CBR that ate itself and that was because the guy ran it with no oil. Don't know where your getting your info from. The guys that are racing the CBR love it because they are beating the Ninja horde (documented!) regularly.

The CBR is made in both Thailand and India. I believe all the NA/Euro bikes come from Thailand. The bikes made in India, have lots of glaring faults attributed to poor assembly quality.

So I'll give you some info that you CAN use to fuel your arguments. A small percentage of bikes seem to have a rattling in the top end of the engine around 5000 rpm. Mine doesn't, and the 3 other guys I know personally who own CBR's don't do it either. Honda is mum on the subject, but so far, it's just a noise. No lunched valve trains, no detonated engines from falkered cam chains...
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Old 03-12-2012, 10:58 AM   #195
NJ-Brett
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And that might work better at idle, and that is about it.
FI adds no power over a good well set up carb.
And a LOT of things come into play with the way power is made by an engine, 2 or 4 valves, the cam grind, bore and stroke, compression ratio, max red line rpm.
Bore and stroke aside, 4 valves and a lot of rpm makes a lot of high rpm power with the right cam.
2 valves can make more at low to mid rpm and fall flat at high rpm.
A short stroke allows very high rpm from a piston standpoint, but the valves have to close (and not float) and its hard to get a big valve to close at very high rpm.



FI is cleaner since it can adjust real time for every engine temp change, but on many bikes power with FI is less because they set it to run very lean (Harley's).
Just bolting on a carb (if you could do it) would give a power boost.
As it is, you have to spend money for a tuner to get the mixture in the ball park.



Quote:
Originally Posted by strongbad View Post
Probably the fact that FI was originally developed for racing--Formula 1 racing, I think. A carburetor has to restrict the intake to create the vacuuum to draw fuel from the bowl into the airstream to vaporize. FI needs no such restriction because the fuel is pressurized and vaporized by a mechanical or electrical pump.
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