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Old 09-15-2013, 05:55 PM   #1
Natter2002 OP
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Location: Minnesota
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1976 R60/6 Rear Main Seal

Hello again,
Getting ready to order a new RMS for the above bike. I would welcome some input on the following topics.

I read SuperShaft said somewhere you could easily pull out the old one with a seal puller. 7 dollars and 5 seconds after pulling the new tool out of the package I yanked it right out without even using any lever action, just pulled straight back. Good thing I didnt fall on my butt as I was just crouching there :) . This is after spending about thirty minutes trying to pull it off with my fingers the night before and tearing away parts of it.

Then in the mean time I've been doing as much research as I can about how to install the new one and it's been interesting. I keep thinking to myself, "Why can't I just push the new one in with my fingers?" Why not, Nate? I go outside in the rain, walk into the shop, grab the old seal and it just pops in, easy as can be, ploop, it pops back out, and I chuck it back into the garbage. For the life of me I can not understand why this is a big deal when it comes to the dreaded moment to try to put the new version in. I do realize there must be much more to the topic I don't understand yet. You see, in my head I'm thinking this would go in just like putting a can of pop back onto a 6 pack ring, just wrangle that sucker on there and it's good if it's back in the same place. Or, putting the cover back on a used tupperware container. (start at an edge, and just push it on. Obviously I dont know what I'm talking about?

Here is a term I cant figure out, but I can only assume means, "leave an edge sticking out", Such as 1mm "proud" You should see what shows up when I type that into google. "Proud seal" "make a seal proud"

Why does the seal have to go in perfectly square, does it not just push in and then "seat?" because it is squishy and soft, and has a light coating of oil on the outer diameter? If it doesnt go in square can't I just push it around the edges with my fingers, seat it, and make it square that way, since from what I can tell I should install it untill it seats?

Since I've never held one in my hand I don't know; is it impossible to push a seal in with your hands due to the rigid nature of it? (thus the wood block or flat plate method)

Is it worthless to buy the northwoods special tool since I've pulled the old RMS out (and in and out) haha

Save me from myself?? I figure i've at least got a week to figure this one out so I'm interested.

All in all I am assuming this RMS must be fairly rigid, thus requiring a huge socket, PVC pipe, flat plat, or block of wood to seat squarely without damaging it as it starts to seat.

I am not trying to sound like a smart ass, that's just what's going through my head.

Of course this is also coming from a guy who's ridden maybe 100,000 miles and done all (except tire mounting/balancing) my own maintenence (however nothing real serious like I'm trying on this bike) without ever owning or knowing how to use a torque wrench... (Sorry, that is my confession, and yes i'm going to buy a set for this bike!)

Nate!!
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Old 09-15-2013, 07:31 PM   #2
Tin Woodman
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Nate, I too agonized over the RMS replacement issue - sounds like we're two peas in a pod. I think I exhausted the talent on this forum and they're no doubt sick of my whining. For a positively fascinating account of my RMS adventure, read the four or five pages on my thread starting here. . .

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showt...=860694&page=7

It will put you to sleep.
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Old 09-15-2013, 07:49 PM   #3
Natter2002 OP
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Hi Tin

You are the brave first one to reply. Yes I just finished reading through your thread and finally said to myself I'd just ask the questions I wanted to ask. I DO NOT intend to be disrespectful of everyones opinions or the time they take to write up a procedure. That's just honestly how I picture it going in. It must, however, be very rigid. The only reason I mention the 100,000 mile thing is look how far a kid can get without breaking anything but the holy commandment of procedure. The only problem with that is I've learned very bad habits and must break them! The only bad thing I broke once (thank goodness early, too) was when I was younger I owned a 72 BMW 2002 and the first thing I workd on was the carb. Well I went to screw the top down nice and tight and watched the threads come right out the top. I overcame that for about 6 years by just pulling the choke cable out further. Oh my. Another confession. At least at that time I bought a cheap car but had no means to fix it. This time around I bought a cheap airhead and do have means to fix it with a lot more experience.

Example: Ten years ago, having never driven a boat before, I built and piloted a powered Huck Finn looking raft 1,500?? miles (I'd have to look at the charts) down the Mississippi from Minneapolis to Donaldsonville, LA and I'm still here today, having had one of the best times of my life. To celebrate the trip, and where I've come since then with school, and work, and meeting my wife and all of that, her and I rode on our motorcycle the route I took down the mighty Miss and spent a little bit of time in New Orleans. It was a big thing for me to reflect on all that! Anyway..

I learned a lot of things from that trip, especially regarding procedure, and percieved procedures, percieved dangers (sorry if this is all spelled wrong) and real dangers. If I could figure out how to post a picture of what it looked like, boat builders and lay persons of all types would spit their beers out laughing at what I built. But I did it! Hell, if I thought of it long enough, and started letting the stories flow through my head I bet I could even get emotional. I learned about navigation, COLREGS, the Mississippi itself, long range logistical planning, yadda yadda. I read for seven months straight over the winter during the prep phase. It was all a pleasure for me. And so what about the execution, thats the part everyone wants to know about...well while it looked insane and thrown together in minutes, the entire trip went flawlessly and as planned.

I think this BMW project is going to be a lot like that adventure, but I want it to look a lot nicer than that raft did, when I'm done :)
Edit:
Here it is:

Natter2002 screwed with this post 09-15-2013 at 10:02 PM
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Old 09-15-2013, 10:09 PM   #4
Kai Ju
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The old seal may have come out with ease because rubber will shrink with age. Getting the new seal in will be a bit harder.
I use a one inch hardwood dowel and getting the seal started evenly is key. Once you get it started drive it in square by tapping around the perimeter until the dowel hits the aluminum. So I don't leave it proud, just flush. Never had a problem.

But here comes the question that nobody has asked yet: Did you block the crank ???
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Old 09-15-2013, 10:51 PM   #5
Natter2002 OP
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Yup

I did, with the direct help of adv. Hadnt caught that tip before.
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Old 09-15-2013, 11:17 PM   #6
Plaka
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Originally Posted by Natter2002 View Post
I did, with the direct help of adv. Hadnt caught that tip before.
The seal has thin metal molded under the rubber. You can bend it, crease it, etc. Then it won't seal. You push on it with something that spreads the force.

You want the lip of the seal riding on a known place on the crank. If the crank is nice and smooth where the old seal lip was riding, then you want the new lip there. if it's rough or a groove has worn, then you want the lip on fresh metal. This is why you observe/measure how the old seal was sitting before you took it out. The you can put the new seal in the same place or adjust as desired.

When something is sitting proud of something else, it is protruding past the other thing. If it's sitting shy, then it is lower or has an edge behind the other thing.

According to Euclid, a plane intersecting a cylinder at an angle to the normal axis of the cylinder describes an ellipse. If the seal is square to the crank, the hole in it is circular. If it is cocked, the hole is an ellipse with respect to the crank. Round shafts in elliptical holes leak. No, it will not self align or bottom out. It needs to be started, and driven, squarely.

Do you remember, as a small child, trying to screw the lid back on the peanut butter jar? Your hand was too small to span the lid. it was difficult to hold it square and get the threads started.

cool raft.
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Old 09-16-2013, 04:14 AM   #7
Natter2002 OP
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Awesome!

Makes sense. Thank you!
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Old 09-25-2013, 06:17 AM   #8
TINK
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Sorry I got to the party late...
Were you able to get your RMS installed? Did you use a tool?
I bought the tool (forget from who) which made the whole process a snap.
Did you change the oil pump cover o-ring and flywheel o-ring too?
Did you BLOCK THE CRANK!

TINK

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Old 09-25-2013, 06:28 AM   #9
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Enough about the RMS, more about the raft trip!!
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Old 10-01-2013, 06:47 PM   #10
Natter2002 OP
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Hey Tink, I should have it in next week or so. I did end up ordering a tool for it. Yup I blocked the crank and ordered the oil pump cover seal too. I should be all set!
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Old 10-02-2013, 12:09 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by ozmoses View Post
Enough about the RMS, more about the raft trip!!

Yup.....
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Old 10-02-2013, 06:09 AM   #12
Natter2002 OP
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It was a fun trip. Did it 10 years ago with a friend. Learned a ton of stuff. Kept my mind busy over a winter during the planning, and for a month during the doing. Would love to build something "beautiful" and do it again when I could take about 45 days or so. The vessel itself had some great properties and some terrible ones. The good things were it was basically unsinkable unless it were to be completly destroyed as it floated on two closed cell foam pontoons encassed in plywood. So if you poked a hole in it, or broke a huge chuck off, as long as you had some foam still you'd float. In fact the seal wasnt even close to water tight. The other good thing is it floated in only 2" of water which was amazing, for it's size. With the motor you could turn it 90degrees (almost) and it would basically turn in a circle on it's own footprint. I could make that huge heavy thing do anything I wanted in any current once I got good at it (For docking, etc which is not easy on a river running perpendicular to the dock!) The bad things were it was so slow. With the motor going wide open it would go 4 MPH faster than the current. With current, depending on location and relation to the dams, speeds averaged anywhere from 7 MPH to 12 MPH, gaged off a portable GPS from the era. So on the lower Mississippi, south of Cairo, if I did not plan my run right, I didnt have enough power to head up stream, unless I ran my kicker motor wide open too, but then just barely, as in maybe .5MPH upstream. And that's hugging the extremes of the bank, which is not the safest place to be. IN the main channel I would never have had the power to turn around, as there are structures built in called "wing dams" that attempt to speed up the water in the center of the channel to keep it naturally dug out. All those dams did was create monster whirlpools that can supposedly suck full sized trees down and trap boats for hours! I saw some and almost got stuck in some but I made it through. Anyone who grew up near a huge river system knows what I'm talking about...another bad thing: it had just a few inches of freeboard so it was always getting wet on the deck as it just crushed waves in front of it. If you saw huge waves coming from a ship or a barge, you could cut the power and the raft would beautifully ride up over the steepest waves. But if I ran full power it would sheer the top of the waves right off and I'd get a big blast of cold water.....for hours at a time! (if the wind was blowing towards me).
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