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Old 12-08-2011, 01:02 PM   #61
Sting32
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Originally Posted by roadholder View Post
Check out the Trials Central discussion.
I posted there, smartassedly, and afraid to go back, lol. But when I was there, they were talking about the UK, not the USA...

It is still about quit being a girlscout, and trying to change the boyscouts.

My last, but highly screaming remark on the whole NO STOP crap is...
If They want NO STOP, start THIER own dang organization/sanctioning body, but & leave the modern trials we already have, alone.

there are more than enough other problems to get fixed with the existing rules we need to work on, to keep everyone busy for the next 30 years, LOL...
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Old 12-09-2011, 12:45 PM   #62
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The No Stop discussion is great way to look at the current state of our sport. A healthy discussion can help us understand where we are and where we are going. We all want the same thing, to keep our sport fun and healthy.

It seems that some people think that No Stop means means no trick riding, no hopping, no nose wheelies....that's not the case.


It has to do with how we set our sections. Do we want a series of "boxes" that force us to" hop" all day or do we set fun flowing sections that we get to "ride".

I believe if there is too many "rat maze" sections that people get discouraged. Keeping it FUN is what keeps people riding trials and also attracts new riders.
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Old 12-09-2011, 01:05 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by LowPSI View Post
The No Stop discussion is great way to look at the current state of our sport. A healthy discussion can help us understand where we are and where we are going. We all want the same thing, to keep our sport fun and healthy.

It seems that some people think that No Stop means means no trick riding, no hopping, no nose wheelies....that's not the case.


It has to do with how we set our sections. Do we want a series of "boxes" that force us to" hop" all day or do we set fun flowing sections that we get to "ride".

I believe if there is too many "rat maze" sections that people get discouraged. Keeping it FUN is what keeps people riding trials and also attracts new riders.
Lowpsi, I dunno, I think no stop means, judgement calls. Exactly when might you stop. Do you recall, that it wasnt that long ago, that we could take hands off the bars and move rear of bike wherever? Or that we used to ride up to a particular spot, then make the bike roll back as far as we needed to, then go?

The biggest and DUMBEST arguement for no-stop, is that suddenly there are people falling out of the woodwork to try trials, or to come back to trials.

In reality, juniors, beginners, even an enduro class (which we'll have to make this class if Ossa and the likes make those bikes, you know!)... anything with skills less than best all around Novice class winners, dont stop most of the time, when they do, I see it as a safety issue, and with not fearing failure, the riders are able to get a foot DOWN, collect themselves and the bike. The ones that don't or cannot stop with foot down, will stay in beginner while they pick up these skills, else they might hurt themselves in novice. In fact, in novice, I dont (I score it every month) see them "stopping or hopping" either, until they are about to get a fat 5 on something, like mistake around a curve to a rock or obstacle. It is no brainer IMHO, that not stopping, can get ya hurt. But still I just dont see novices do this, unless like me, I might say something when one of our novices are "stuck" somewhere...

You dont see much of those techniques, until you get to intermediate's class, and I dare say the upper top half of those riders. and IMHO until recently it was mostly former experts that have gotten too old to ride expert safely, or guys like me, that get tired of getting beat by those former experts, that forced myself to keep practicing those technique, so I could also use it in that class. I cant believe you all (no stop supporters) would think I was the second coming, if I had been one to get the rules changed to suit ME, vs me getting better with all the skills we have at our disposal? It just seems SOCCER MOM_ish, hell lets just give everyone the same damn trophy, for whoever bothers to come, and enter the trials?

Damn, I may be different, I see balancing a stopped bike, hopping, and mostof this stuff a pretty advanced skill. one that I strive to get good at, if you remove that, I feel like after the 1st 10 years of trials, back in 82, then I did all know all there was to do in trials. today we ride over the crap in our club's private rock quarry, you know? I have videos on 8mm of places where the master class riders were doing what intermediates ride, to get to the fun stuff...

Just sayin.
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Old 12-09-2011, 03:30 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by roadholder View Post
Check out the Trials Central discussion.
Yeah, I saw that too. However I have been hearing similar from other UK and Europe trials sources in recent times, where they have had clubs switched over for longer then most here in North America...hence the only real trend to guage so far. Time will tell over here, and this could be only one of many "how to fix trials" inititatives I expect we will see, for better or worse. Like anything else, I doubt any results are universal and completely consistant across the board, but they are somewhat telling at least.

Hard to measure no doubt, but even if you dispute any gains made out there, you can be sure no clubs have switched from no-stop back to stop rules and seen an increase in participation!
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Old 12-09-2011, 08:04 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by LowPSI View Post
It has to do with how we set our sections. Do we want a series of "boxes" that force us to" hop" all day or do we set fun flowing sections that we get to "ride".

I believe if there is too many "rat maze" sections that people get discouraged. Keeping it FUN is what keeps people riding trials and also attracts new riders.
Many riders seem to think that ribbon is a good substitute for terrain. My feeling is that if we're just gonna ride ribbons we might as well set up events in parking lots. I think that making Trials sections resemble actual offroad riding conditions will be more attractive, and less intimidating, to new riders.

What do you folks think about having an observer start counting when a rider stops with a foot down, if the observer gets to three before the rider gets going, it's a five. Of course some riders will count faster than others, so the prudent rider will get going quickly.
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Old 12-09-2011, 11:28 PM   #66
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[QUOTE=lamotovita;17485367]Many riders seem to think that ribbon is a good substitute for terrain. My feeling is that if we're just gonna ride ribbons we might as well set up events in parking lots. I think that making Trials sections resemble actual offroad riding conditions will be more attractive, and less intimidating, to new riders.

QUOTE]

I have issues with your statement.

It is a mute point for 90% of the people that hang out in here... the guys that are "thinkin I would like to buy a trials bike, and eventually give it a try..." that you guys are trying to make it sound like "damn, you know someday in 5-10 years, if you even come and join us, you might have to learn to balance that bike without putting your foot down, while stopped@ OH MY!! you might have to hop the front wheel once in a great while, then it only gets worse! them impossible rear hops you might have to dw when you are in expert!!! So let me tell you why it would be great to change the rules now!"


You describe trials (Lamatova, and lowPSI) as if you 2 are and everyone else in here is freAking Toni Bou and Raga? and everyone has to stop and hop everything, when you know damn well they DO NOT!

you dont have to stop and hop and stuff until well into Expert, in MOST CLUBS! If your CLUB has novices having to hop, your CLUB is the one f-ked up. Becuase, the only people that are doing all this hopping, are "exceptional" TOP damn riders, riding in the TOP friggin classes... Its not us just the out of the woodwork or former woods racing people!


You act as though, unless we're lucky enough that some dumbasses convince everyone to change the rules, that really wont affect most of anyone on here... how great it will be that none of the best riders in the country, will be allowed to do it, in competiton, because you unthinking world class top riders, hate it so much, and think that it will be better for the beginners and novce riders?

IT is paramount to, saying Bubba will not be allowed to fucking tripple jump, or go so FAAAAAAST!!!! because it isnt fair that 4 year ols Shelia on her PW50, or 55 year old JimBob, cant do it { in Shelia's case, "YET"}

ya know what it is,

ya'll are being stupid "occupy stop and hop" dumbasses..

SO, Im throwin the BULLSHIT flag@ this one...

damn!
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Old 12-10-2011, 05:31 AM   #67
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Lamotavita does have a point with the stopping with the foot down. I still do not know what people were thinking when this crap started. It should of been at least three pts since at this point the rider has failed to `ride` the section. One thing that could be changed is not to let a rider reposition the bike while stopped and a foot or feet down. I think a rider should have to regain control (balance) and move it while in motion (hopping). Any attempt to move the bike while resting should be a 5. Nothing drives me crazy than to watch a rider sit for three minutes at every section and slowly move it in the line they want all the while sitting on there _ss resting and getting a one!
So you are 5 sections into an event clean the first four and stall in the 5th trying to clean it and up comes the guy who chooses not to learn to hop just stop and rest and he takes another timely dab and now you are tied?
That is why I`d rather go backwards than ride this s__t rules that we have. We have lost the point spread between the good and the ugly. Let`s see the lazy rider get through without stopping and get his deserved 5.
And I know you will like the next idea, The nationals should go no stop for just the clubman and support line. Leave the Experts and Pro`s with indoor rules. Yes let them back up also. We go to see their skill not to penalize the ablity they have. Most of the support rarely hop, you would not have to time them. Best part is we would get rid of most loooooonngg bottle necks and the PROS would actually have time to ride the last loop properly.
Yes the good ol` boys have ten months to work on that idea. Nothing like a change up in making the boring nationals a riding event instead of sitting and talking all day long. I know some think that`s crazy but it would sure change the overall time in the sections and open it up to the big boys.
I just need to instill this idea to the right ears and see what happens. Change could be good. Hope this snow melts, I need to polish up on my floaters and rolling nose wheelies. Never know they might be all we got.
P. S. you gentleman could mention that to your local NATC reps, some of those good ole boys still can think outside the hop, I mean box.

lineaway screwed with this post 12-10-2011 at 06:43 AM
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Old 12-10-2011, 05:37 AM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sting32;

[CENTER
ya'll are being stupid "occupy stop and hop" dumbasses..[/CENTER]

SO, Im throwin the BULLSHIT flag@ this one...

damn!
Ok, you might want to look at my post again, and read it this time (isn't there a little smily face that says pull your head out). I don't think "no stop" is the answer here in the USA , that's why I was suggesting a way to keep riders moving while not making observers penalize riders for stopping.
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Old 12-10-2011, 10:30 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by lineaway View Post
Lamotavita does have a point with the stopping with the foot down. I still do not know what people were thinking when this crap started. It should of been at least three pts since at this point the rider has failed to `ride` the section. One thing that could be changed is not to let a rider reposition the bike while stopped and a foot or feet down. I think a rider should have to regain control (balance) and move it while in motion (hopping). Any attempt to move the bike while resting should be a 5. Nothing drives me crazy than to watch a rider sit for three minutes at every section and slowly move it in the line they want all the while sitting on there _ss resting and getting a one!
So you are 5 sections into an event clean the first four and stall in the 5th trying to clean it and up comes the guy who chooses not to learn to hop just stop and rest and he takes another timely dab and now you are tied?
That is why I`d rather go backwards than ride this s__t rules that we have. We have lost the point spread between the good and the ugly. Let`s see the lazy rider get through without stopping and get his deserved 5.
And I know you will like the next idea, The nationals should go no stop for just the clubman and support line. Leave the Experts and Pro`s with indoor rules. Yes let them back up also. We go to see their skill not to penalize the ablity they have. Most of the support rarely hop, you would not have to time them. Best part is we would get rid of most loooooonngg bottle necks and the PROS would actually have time to ride the last loop properly.
Yes the good ol` boys have ten months to work on that idea. Nothing like a change up in making the boring nationals a riding event instead of sitting and talking all day long. I know some think that`s crazy but it would sure change the overall time in the sections and open it up to the big boys.
I just need to instill this idea to the right ears and see what happens. Change could be good. Hope this snow melts, I need to polish up on my floaters and rolling nose wheelies. Never know they might be all we got.
P. S. you gentleman could mention that to your local NATC reps, some of those good ole boys still can think outside the hop, I mean box.
You make some good points lineaway. The first is you do a good job of what I call "bike dragging". Even if a lower class rider is not forced to hop they use the current scoring to "reposition" their bike. No skill involved there.

One of the biggest fun killers is long lines. Nobody wants to sit in a line. If you want to have some real fun try a trials with No Stop style sections and NO scorecards. Have the checkers use a clips board and the riders have numbers ala UK style. You will be amazed at how no stop riding and eliminating getting punched ads fun and flow to your day.

For a National event to move along without bottlenecks the average ride should take 45 seconds. We have tried it at a National and it works.Its all about section design and not making a 45 second rule.

Just for fun try some math. Take a 45 second ride vs a 90 second ride. If you have just 4 guys in front of you (all day) at a National it adds 108 minutes of sitting in line to your day.

I never said No Stop was the answer. Never said it was going to make the sport get popular. All I am saying is that an intelligent exchange of ideas can help keep our sport healthy and fun.
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Old 12-10-2011, 10:37 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by lamotovita View Post
Many riders seem to think that ribbon is a good substitute for terrain. My feeling is that if we're just gonna ride ribbons we might as well set up events in parking lots. I think that making Trials sections resemble actual offroad riding conditions will be more attractive, and less intimidating, to new riders.

.
Here is an interview with Ot Pi http://66.163.168.225/babelfish/tran...cototal.htm%3f Scroll down ....the translation is not the best but......He has some good things to say about both BikeTrial and MotoTrial need to be more Dynamic.

LowPSI screwed with this post 12-10-2011 at 12:15 PM
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Old 12-11-2011, 08:49 AM   #71
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One of the reasons Trials was "no stop" at first was because of the equipment. Bultaco and Montesa clutches wouldn't release and brakes wouldn't stop you. . My club-STRA- has had the subject of how to make Trials more appealing to new riders and spectators since it started. There is no one solution,our rider #'s have went up and down over the years reguardless of the equipment,scoring system, or advertising.We seen to get a short lived jump if there is a National event which last maybe a year then it goes back to near the earlier level. In the early 1980's I hosted an event with over 100 riders ,this year they had to use peer scoring on 1 day because of lack of checkers.

We need a scoring system that is easy for everyone to understand ,fair to all classes,and cuts down on judgement calls on the checkers part.The top riders will allways be the top riders,the bottom end will allways get points.
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Old 12-28-2011, 10:50 PM   #72
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Looks like the British championship and more has gone back to no stop rules to increase rider numbers. I like it, but sections would have to change or it would fall on the scorers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ys59y...eature=related

Same shite really.....
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Old 12-29-2011, 07:20 AM   #73
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IT is worse than that, and too many cant think through the unintended consequences, but even just at the get go, no stop is freaking dumb...

It is like putting up t-ball poles in the major leagues, and removing the pitcher's skill, all just for saying "we'll have more people able to play pro ball" The whole damn thing is rediculous as trophy's for "each kid in the tournament" soccer-mom mentality.

SOn of a B.t.h, why do people believe that the "casual" rider will be the "saving graces" to this g*ddam sport?

IT is not, and will not matter, again, novice is pretty much no stop for 99.98% of novice riders. IF they dont want to get better after novice, then WTF? They can hang out in novice with all the other guys that rather watch football (or it is too hot or too cold, or it is raining) on sunday than ride a trials, LIKE THEY DO 9 out of 12 freaking months a year. Heck some states you only have 8 months of events anyhow...

Plus these casual riders that refuse to learn or will be BOTHERED to learn the new techniques, they seldom help setup and put on trials, let alone be officers or do any work except show up and ride that one weekend a year, that something else IS NOT going on.

PLEASE read this and educate yourself, everyone that is involved with trials, past the "I think Ill go this month" mentality! Use your head!

It is the HARD core trials people that STARTED & keeps trials in the USA going (I would argue, any country) PERIOD. Right now and hopefully forever, trials is an AMATURE sport, there is NOT millions to be made having events, becuase you know damn well that when that happens, trials will cost a crapload to participate in. Look at ANYTHING even going to your local football games, $7 soda pop? $8 cup of beer, ARE you sh*tting me?

Hard Core people, not only are the club members that are president, and secretary or treasurer and give a lot to a sport and club that they really like and enjoy the hell out of it. Not for MONEY. When able, they are out several days per month clearing brush and setting up sections! So Joe Blow casual rider might happen to get off his girlfriend a come ride...

PLUS We recruit, train, and help outfit people with seemingly like minded mentality, that it is more fun to challenge your self, than to give to quit because you got beat... We believe trials is more fun than most any other activity. I have other interest, but trials comes first, then the rest.

WHEN you replace the hard core with people trying to make money on this, trials will DIE. I personally will hate that day.
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Old 12-29-2011, 07:27 AM   #74
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I hear that they are going to a "no scrub" rule on jumps in MX because everyone can't seem to pull it off.
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Old 12-29-2011, 08:26 AM   #75
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In order to move the conversation forward and away from "no stop is freakin dumb" let's talk riding techniques.

Stop vs No Stop is a trade off in techniques. What skills and techniques are lost vs what is gained between the two riding styles?
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