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Old 12-29-2011, 10:12 AM   #76
Sting32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LowPSI View Post
In order to move the conversation forward and away from "no stop is freakin dumb" let's talk riding techniques.

Stop vs No Stop is a trade off in techniques. What skills and techniques are lost vs what is gained between the two riding styles?
Again, lets move professional (or even amature sports) back to the stone ages, by removing techniques... Tball stands on home plate, becuase there are only about 94 great & able pitchers in the MLB. No more bumping and checking in Hockey, it is just too freaking scary, you know with all the missing teeth. Hey, lets make the goals bigger and make the goalies stand up (you know technique), that will have a bigger audience for hockey, you know 34 to 38 type scores instead of 2 - 0 we have now?

Bowling, no more wierd grips and approaches, everyone hold the ball exacly the same, and definitely no spinning the ball, I mean hell I cant seem to get the hang of that crap.

Pool (billiards) no more english on the cueball, that is just too dang hard to get good at.

the freaking list goes on and on.

If the NO STOP is so great, I again EMPLORE you supporters or people that consider it to be the way to go, lets just start a new sanctioning party, that would be parrallel to NATC. After you get that the rule change ruins or does make better, get your standards all figured out, then I know for a fact people might switch, or better yet clubs might decide no stop sat, stop on sunday, let the attendance decide?

Right now, I cant see it. I hated trials where the "Judge" had the ability (due to judgement calls) to affect your score by 4 points, because he thinks you stopped with foot down, even though clearly (and even on tape) people were NOT. Which many times takes you from from 1st to last...

The NOSTOP crowd is living in the past, where the bikes and riders weren't even half capable, hell most of the best riders (Bernie, lane leavett, and the rest probably only worked out in a gym after they got full ride sponsors). the rest us are and were out of shape deskjob dwellers, and with the things we can ride take more effort, and means safety, of being able to stop and dab, (eventually I will have fought for safety rule to be able to wipe face or push glasses back on yer face) and not get FAIL'd, cannot be anything but a good thing.

This stupid ass rule of you cant push your glasses back on your face, with a foot down (like almost off a damn cliff) with sweat streaming in your eyes, without being judged a FAIL, is STUPID as hell for saety sake. FWIW, I stupidly make payments on my lasik surgery well, that was 80% reason why I wanted it. Yeah, that is the kind of dedication hard core trials people that keep clubs alive will do. These people have, that show up for trials, EVERY event, within reason. I also mention I drive 150 miles to and then 150 back home from MY club's site, to compete each 2nd sunday of the month, 300 miles to my "other clubs" I visit when I have the $$. There are people who wont show up when the dang thing is in thier back yard so to speak, they will tell you it is because of it not being NO STOP, I think... whatever.

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Old 12-29-2011, 10:27 AM   #77
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Most riding styles would remain the same. Jap zap, splatters , double blip all would still be used. Nose wheelies, hops, and flick turns would still be used by the skilled rider. The bike draggers would now triple the score that they are used to having.
Section building would go back to using more natural type sections. Using the tape as the obstacle would be reduced. The points spread would change as the parking lot hoppers lack of riding skill on the `real ` sections would come out of the end of the day. No more of being perfectly lined up before you attempt a hairy line or wasting three minutes before you hammer up a rock wall.
The overall time of any event would be shortened. I see the scores going up and the number of ties reduced. An event would probably flow better with less lines at the sections.
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Old 12-29-2011, 10:44 AM   #78
Sting32
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Originally Posted by lineaway View Post
Most riding styles would remain the same. Jap zap, splatters , double blip all would still be used. Nose wheelies, hops, and flick turns would still be used by the skilled rider. The bike draggers would now triple the score that they are used to having.
Section building would go back to using more natural type sections. Using the tape as the obstacle would be reduced. The points spread would change as the parking lot hoppers lack of riding skill on the `real ` sections would come out of the end of the day. No more of being perfectly lined up before you attempt a hairy line or wasting three minutes before you hammer up a rock wall.
The overall time of any event would be shortened. I see the scores going up and the number of ties reduced. An event would probably flow better with less lines at the sections.
It is just about the dumbest statement I have read on a forum, well since the 80s.

that the guy that can hop/balance his bike will show how "no skill" he has on the trail ride sections (no stop)...

Did you even engage your brain on this before you posted? that guy that is learning to stop hop and all that "parkin lot" crap, is kicking your ass all the way down the line, because he's working at, and adding to his SKILLS set used in competition, which seems to read that is what you think was dumb. He will (if forced to) also learn and beat your ass even more, at the left over skills, ESPECIALLY since he will divide the time to learn 4 or more FEWER skills to be BETTER at trials,

Seriously.
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Old 12-29-2011, 11:14 AM   #79
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While you were posting on the forums in the 80`s. (Now how did you do that?) I was learning the new style of hopping. I was just replying to LOWPSI comment of moving away from dumb. This was an attempt at a discussion of actually riding. You seem to like just one aspect of this sport. If you have read my posts, I can hop and all the fun tricks that go along with not actually riding. So why not tell us all the great benefits of stopping with your foot down. While your at it tell us why trail riding is too easy for you to do? The benefits of you hopping all day to get a clean and some fool on a `96 Beta takes a one in the same section after 5 minutes of manuevering his wheels just so and now we have the start of an all day bottleneck.
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Old 12-29-2011, 03:30 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by lineaway View Post
While you were posting on the forums in the 80`s. (Now how did you do that?) I was learning the new style of hopping. I was just replying to LOWPSI comment of moving away from dumb. This was an attempt at a discussion of actually riding. You seem to like just one aspect of this sport. If you have read my posts, I can hop and all the fun tricks that go along with not actually riding. So why not tell us all the great benefits of stopping with your foot down. While your at it tell us why trail riding is too easy for you to do? The benefits of you hopping all day to get a clean and some fool on a `96 Beta takes a one in the same section after 5 minutes of manuevering his wheels just so and now we have the start of an all day bottleneck.
3 big things, and sorry I pee'd in your cherios, it is hard to do without being face to face instead of keyboard to keyboard.

ABout benifits of foot down, I DID EXPLAIN, if nothing else SAFETY! (you beotch about my reading everything you've EVER posted but must have gotten too pissed off to just read my post, JUSt above yours.)

IF I want to just friggin trail ride, then just friggin trail ride, damn. Why call it a "sport" or even frucking keep scores then? Well to me, I like the competition, apparently most of you guys dont? crap, before we got into trials, we did the "explore colorado" every weekend, 6-8 buddies, left home to ride newly aquired 1969 suzuki 110's. FWIW, you cannot believe the places you CANNOT ride to nowdays, but that is another subject. But, There was no contest, it is not some sanctioned event, no winners or competition. SHeeit. At best it was a fun outing, at worst it was a lot of being with buddies doing nothing. but it had no point, except to explore the friggin terrain/scenery. Nobody spent the previous 3 weekends cleaning limbs, arranging for trophies to be available, keep scores, all this crap, laying out the "course" for the competition. What part of trials and competition does NOT equaL A D#MN trail ride, do you not get?

I dont just like the "one aspect" of the friggin sport, what you guys cannot seem to fathom is that like friggin any other club or competition, there are skills and rules, and things that are done. Like minded people having fun and competition. Damn. I can only imagine, that 1st guy to thow a hook shot in bowling, or a curve ball in baseball, then everyone going we got to Ban that friggin curve ball!

No, it is TRIALS enthusiasts, enjoiying a days of riding "trials" or those just glad to be out of the house... If you get a bunch of trail riding buddies, then you have a bunch of trail riding enthusiasts having fun doing whatever it is you do trail riding....

BUT, half the supposed "crowds" of these riders they all talk about "rushing back" into the sport of TRIALS, when it goes no curve ball, or "NO STOP" are and will, time and time again are those that wouldnt even INVEST the tiny bit of time to learn & practice the new skills to be "competitve" in this sport as it is now, for some reason... THen on top of that, and somehow getting these guys back from the mysitcal woodwork is the saving of trials, bar none?

I say, it is track record through and through.... if they refuse to try and learn new skills/tricks, you will find that they never have time to practice, never setup or help setup trials sections, or anything else because it is "just too much" to choose from TV, a beer, or trials once a month, year round. I see another trend, ONLY you 40'ish and under crowd believes the way to fix anything is remove any self satisfaction that you could compete and win or compete and lose, and if you get tired of losing, rewrite the rules so you can win, instead of practicing or learning and beating the course or others, with what exists...

THese same guys show up 2 minutes before the riders meetings, load the bikes and are gone before trophy ceremony, and live of the graces of every hard core enthusiast in the club that DID do all the above.

I stand by the notion, that without stop and hopping, that is about 5 skills I do work on, plus the basics, plus other skills, every 3 hour ride I do, so without the 5 I have more time to get better at the others, and beat the same people. Bet me.

Sorry, that is the best part of trials, the people the work, the like minded individuals. Nope, you guys think the BoyScouts/cubscouts should be sewing dresses, playing with barbies, and getting in touch with feelings, so that the girls will be feeing welcome, and sorry, I dont. they have an app (I mean a club) for that crap. Or they need to make one. Nope, it is all about busting up what has been, so the few can take over and make it what they never invested squat in, and feel good.
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Old 12-29-2011, 03:41 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by lineaway View Post
While you were posting on the forums in the 80`s. (Now how did you do that?)
BY the way, & again, you dont know jack. I have been online long before there was such a thing as a "web browser" let alone pictures in them (you probably just call it internet, if you Barely know anything you probably know if you use IE, Firefox, chrome, or what else.) this was before Mosaic, and the Netscape days too by the way... look it up, just like rotory phones, it did exist... before you noticed it. Usnet, and before that bulliten boards. I still recall that 1st time with the "new" 9600 baud modem, thinking, wow that is fast!

!wq
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Old 12-29-2011, 06:25 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LowPSI View Post
In order to move the conversation forward and away from "no stop is freakin dumb" let's talk riding techniques.

Stop vs No Stop is a trade off in techniques. What skills and techniques are lost vs what is gained between the two riding styles?
Seems like this thread needs to switch to decaf...

I have a small downhill log in my yard that I set up to attempt to overcome my *issues* with downhill logs. I noticed the other day that if I stop before placing the front wheel on the log that it is a LOT easier than doing it "no-stop." Entirely psychological (I'm a wimp), but very real for me.

I'm not sure what that means, really. Seems to me that if no-stop makes it harder, a smaller log can be as challenging as a larger one that I'd have to stop for. Not really sure if it's enough of a difference to say that one is safer than the other, but on the whole, I get the logic behind no stop allowing for smaller obstacles. Without set up time and/or the ability to place your bike perfectly, smaller and safer stuff is equally challenging. I get that appeal re: no-stop.

Another example: While practicing with a bunch of riders (all better than me) a couple of weeks ago, we were attempting a small uphill, sharp turn, up a rooty climb little section. After several attempts, I was able to clean it, but I stopped (balancing) several times. I couldn't seem to do it without stopping.

I pointed out earlier that I have only ridden no-stop so far so I don't have a lot to go on. That said, the more I think about it and practice, I find that I do enjoy being able to stop. But I still think that stopped with a foot on the ground should be a 5. That is, IMO, not riding. Even worse to me is repositioning the bike with a foot on the ground. But then I don't know anything about how or why rules have evolved to be what they are today. I just know what seems logical to me as a 1-season trials newb.
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Old 12-29-2011, 07:32 PM   #83
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Old 12-29-2011, 07:53 PM   #84
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Stopping before lifting the front tire helps preload the front suspension. That helps popping the front tire on top of the log and not gaining too much speed going down hill.
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Old 12-29-2011, 08:02 PM   #85
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As for the off camber turn... Those are actually easier to do with a little momentum as long as your body position transitions are done correctly. Stopping helps give you a little more time to make the transitions that are needed.
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Old 12-29-2011, 08:39 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by Sting32 View Post
BY the way, & again, you dont know jack. I have been online long before there was such a thing as a "web browser" let alone pictures in them (you probably just call it internet, if you Barely know anything you probably know if you use IE, Firefox, chrome, or what else.) this was before Mosaic, and the Netscape days too by the way... look it up, just like rotory phones, it did exist... before you noticed it. Usnet, and before that bulliten boards. I still recall that 1st time with the "new" 9600 baud modem, thinking, wow that is fast!

!wq
I bet you just loved WANG when the 2200 came out. Some how this whole subject has tweaked your brain. What makes you think LOWPSI and myself have not put in the hours. That for some reason you think that only you have. I only brought up this subject since the British were having problems with there own series. You act as though you made up the current set of rules. You didn`t,and I have always thought they sucked. Not because I could not adapt to new riding styles, and ask any one I always liked competition. But being able to dab for a safety issue, instead of taking the damn 5 cuz you cannot keep up with the big boys. The current rules were made for the GIRLS. That is the true comparison that you have been trying to hide behind.
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Old 12-30-2011, 06:56 AM   #87
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Old 12-30-2011, 07:41 AM   #88
Sting32
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Originally Posted by lineaway View Post
I bet you just loved WANG when the 2200 came out. Some how this whole subject has tweaked your brain. What makes you think LOWPSI and myself have not put in the hours. That for some reason you think that only you have. I only brought up this subject since the British were having problems with there own series. You act as though you made up the current set of rules. You didn`t,and I have always thought they sucked. Not because I could not adapt to new riding styles, and ask any one I always liked competition. But being able to dab for a safety issue, instead of taking the damn 5 cuz you cannot keep up with the big boys. The current rules were made for the GIRLS. That is the true comparison that you have been trying to hide behind.

Hey! Im not writing a novel, I dont have the skills or desire to write in perfect grammer, or "Harry Potter" narritive style... If I did I'd write books and leave this crap for the rest of you .

I type more or less like we'd talk in a little group around the firepit, and apparently you read what I type as if I am screaming from some pulpit, and sorry that is your problem. That part is in your brain, when in fact I am not. I know it is a problem that I will/can come off that way, in fact that is more your problem than mine, as I cant help how you read everything as a personal attack... and it is a risk, yet at the time I either sit on my hands, and not participate in the discussion, OR you bear with me, put in just a little thought on what I am trying to convey, instead of nit picking that I was a sailor and the f word & others come out a lot, and I have to edit before posting, sorry... and that except the attack by YOU LINEAWAY, as if I lied about being on the "internet" since the mid-late 80's, due to smarter geekier people for sure, is totally called for defendable part. Trying to get anyone else to read his post to dismiss me as some crack pot that would say anything, that was a low, backhanded comment, that is all you meant and aimed for.

I can say I have more to say on this whole issue, and I can just quit posting, since all you think I want to do is run other people down or off. (when I post and type YOU, this doesn't just mean JUST YOU lineaway, I feel others will read this post, if I didnt, I would fucking email you instead, get it? Again think about it, if possible. If I want to scream and bitch just at you, LowPsi et al, I think email would be the route, not forums. My goal was to let others who read this stand, hear from the other, seemingly silent, side.

So, when you read the posts, especially where I said non thinking, and or stupid, I dont think LOWPSI is stupid, I think his idea might be, maybe, I didnt post just to be opposite of what he said/typed.

It because I dont think people think past "it would be so much better if those guys couldnt stop and hop" for themselves... I first say "why?" it affects no more than 3 "actively posting individuals, here at advrider's trial baord... most of you are barely novice or amature, only 3 I seen so far even let anyone know what class they are in, which is again a problem but whatever, I still dont think that there but 3 that are above support or support+AGE classes if they bother to goto a nationals, and NOT SANDBAG. along with my frieneds on here, most of these guys that do travel or attend a nearby national, most on here (ADV) get their asses handed to them in the new clubman line, and kind of me as well, but really I get mine handed to me in Support 45 class. So that is the perspective, or the where I came from, when I started this, as you (not just you lineaway) put it, whole shouting match...

When IMHO I dont think you or they really think about it from a "Sports perspective" and that 8 of 10 no stop supporters seem to just want to go trail riding... which is fine, and still the point is, if you aren't into TRIALS to beat the course, have fun competing against other like minded and capable individuals, then dont bitch about it. <<< ok that will be taken wrong, I mean yeah bitch all you want ti guess, I just think you should be ready to have people bitch back when you do>>> For the rest of us, We like to learn something new, try new things, stopping and hopping is just more skills we have the bag, to beat the sections, beat you, win. We improve and practice all the time, every couple days, we ride, my dad rides an hour or so EVERY friggin day, he's 76 and he's forgotten more about trials than most. So, if this sport isn't what you aim for, then why do you think you should even presume you should have a say in where trials will be? It is like going to Burger King, telling them you wish like hell they sold bratwurst and corndogs, then thinking you have more than a right to think that way. I say it again, you want bratwurst, goto to freaking wienersnitchels or some shit. if you want a burger Im sure BK would appreciate your business and you are always welcome, within reason of course.

Same with trials, the damn sport is where it is, for what it is, and you are more than welcome to fking join those of us that participate and put these events on, and all that.

and again I cant help if you think that is putting you down, or anyone else down, or what not, it is a general statement, like please don't use this 110v appliance in the shower, at least to me.

Sting32 screwed with this post 12-30-2011 at 08:05 AM
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Old 12-30-2011, 08:52 AM   #89
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Just a quick reply for the record.

Lineaway can ride!
He can ride it "old school" no stop or hop bounce and nose wheelie with all but the few champ class riders in our club.
I've seen him to be the only one to no stop a tight box that everyone else HAD to hop to get through.

Just some perspective for the debate........ and I still think No Stop is ridiculous and if ever implemented, I would probably find something else to do with my weekends.

Carry on.
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Old 12-30-2011, 09:14 AM   #90
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Hi Mitch, I`m Bob R. Way to go on the win in the central r. series last year. You are correct that this should be an open discussion, instead of a private email.So now we are around the fire in good company,usually you probably have Dale M. David B and of course Rick L. all good riders, all common friends.
A little history of myself, first ute cup 1974, first national 1975 New York. Last national win was 2004 rd 3 at colorado. Why that win was important to me was I just bought a bike from Brian Behling 3 weeks prior , had been out 18 months to recover from knee surgery. Was 3rd for the day in support overall. Best feeling in the world after a dry spell of no riding.
I understand why you dislike the idea of `going back`. I also have always hated this foot down all day long. Going back seems to me the easiest way of removing this dreaded rule change. Now if the all day dab was corrected to a 3 it would come close to correcting the point spread. But to do so would put it back to the scorer again. So anything to keep the rules simple to understand to someone trying to score is a step better.
So I`m not some old geezer lookin` to go back to the good ole days. I want to see some points out of the bike draggers. Have you any good ideas on this. Also changeing this rule would help speed up time in the sections. Nothing I hate more is being in the `zone` and come around a corner to a 45 minute bottleneck.
That`s my whole gripe on the current rules. Please let us hear your thoughts, or I`m just loco.
P.S. When is the 2012 CRS schedule coming out or do you know it already? I might just come ride!
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