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Old 06-24-2012, 11:09 PM   #871
A. T. T-W
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobobob View Post
I disagree. Hammie's tires were shot and he threw away
championship points out of spite. I had thought his mental
situation had stabilized recently, but I was wrong.
Out of spite? I have no particular axe to grind on Hamilton's behalf but claiming that spite or petulance motivated his action in that incident is daft.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wxwax View Post
I'm not sure that all 4 wheels were off, although I could be wrong. Regardless, ask yourself if Hamilton is happy with the results of his assertiveness?
But I wasn't commenting upon his satisfaction with the result.

Quote:
Originally Posted by markjenn View Post
In the Hamilton/Maldonado incident, I think it is very hard to succinctly assign blame - yes Maldo was basically off the track, but he was off essentially because Hamilton ran him off - so I'd tend to just let it go without penalty. Regardless, it was very poor judgment on his part to be defending this aggressively with wounded car under him and his position in the championship.

- Mark
Hamilton didn't "run him off". Hamilton defended the line, Maldonado attempted to pass off the line and ran wide as a result. Maldonado left the circuit and having done so, the rules make it plain that the onus is upon the driver regaining the circuit to do so in a safe manner. Maldonado didn't. The blame lies squarely with Maldonado.

Could Hamilton have just pulled over and let him go? Yes, of course.

Could Maldonado have waited for a better opportunity? Yes, of course.

However, apportioning blame has nothing to do with hypothetical questions and the penalty handed down to Maldonado is just.
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Old 06-25-2012, 12:09 AM   #872
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A. T. T-W View Post
But I wasn't commenting upon his satisfaction with the result.
You're right, all 4 left the track. You're right, the punishment is just.

Everyone else is right, Hamilton doesn't yet get it.
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Old 06-25-2012, 12:21 AM   #873
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I missed the race, what happened to the crying kid Vettel?
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Old 06-25-2012, 06:08 AM   #874
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A. T. T-W View Post
Out of spite? I have no particular axe to grind on Hamilton's behalf but claiming that spite or petulance motivated his action in that incident is daft.

But I wasn't commenting upon his satisfaction with the result.

Hamilton didn't "run him off". Hamilton defended the line, Maldonado attempted to pass off the line and ran wide as a result. Maldonado left the circuit and having done so, the rules make it plain that the onus is upon the driver regaining the circuit to do so in a safe manner. Maldonado didn't. The blame lies squarely with Maldonado.

Could Hamilton have just pulled over and let him go? Yes, of course.

Could Maldonado have waited for a better opportunity? Yes, of course.

However, apportioning blame has nothing to do with hypothetical questions and the penalty handed down to Maldonado is just.
No. Hamilton ran him off the track. Maldonado was alongside and Hamilton didn't leave him room. He had to rejoin there for 2 reasons, first, straddling the curb would have damaged his car, second, had he stayed off track and passed hamilton he woukd have had to give the position back. Hamilton showed poor judgement and had worn out tires. The smart thing to do would be to give up the position instead of losing all those points.

Excellent race though, Bernie may be an odd fellow but this years F1 has all the teams on equal footing and its great to see them all compete instead of one or two teams team dominating the landscape.
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Old 06-25-2012, 07:01 AM   #875
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eric2 View Post
No. Hamilton ran him off the track. Maldonado was alongside and Hamilton didn't leave him room.
Hamilton was on the racing line. Maldonado chose to attempt to pass off the racing line. No-one forced him to make the attempt. The attempt failed because Hamilton didn't cede the line to him. Hamilton was under no obligation to do so.

So what we have is a case of immovable object meeting irresistible force. In the circumstances, the move was initiated by Maldonado who failed in his attempt not because Hamilton ran him off the track but because Maldonaldo's ability didn't didn't match his ambition in this case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eric2
He had to rejoin there for 2 reasons, first, straddling the curb would have damaged his car, second, had he stayed off track and passed hamilton he woukd have had to give the position back.
He wouldn't have had to do any of those things if he hadn't made an error in the first place. It was Maldonaldo's initial error that led to his breaking the rule not Hamilton's determination not to let him pass with ease (as they were contesting a position, there is no requirement to move aside unlike when being lapped).

The FIA race stewards (including the guest driver) examined the evidence and disagree with you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eric2
Hamilton showed poor judgement and had worn out tires. The smart thing to do would be to give up the position instead of losing all those points.
Are you as perspicacious without the hindsight? I have no doubt that Hamilton would rather have had the points for fourth than none at all but it was Maldonaldo's failed speculative lunge that caused both drivers to come away without any points.
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Old 06-25-2012, 09:53 AM   #876
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Hey guys, did you see that moment when hamilton and maldonado crashed? I'm pretty sure it was Ron Dennis' fault.
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Old 06-25-2012, 09:56 AM   #877
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Hammy runs out of fuel? back of the grid.
Maldo takes him out (and it isn't the first time this year he's taken someone out...) 20 second penalty.

and yet:
Quote:
Kobayashi will be demoted five places on the grid, following his coming together with the Ferrari of Felipe Massa. Vergne, meanwhile, received a 10-place grid drop and - due to the serious nature of the incident - a 25,000 fine for his clash with Heikki Kovalainen's Caterham on Lap 27.
so... where's the equity in that?
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Old 06-25-2012, 10:11 AM   #878
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only a matter of time....



P1 Silverstone!
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Old 06-25-2012, 10:18 AM   #879
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geg View Post
Hammy runs out of fuel? back of the grid.
Maldo takes him out (and it isn't the first time this year he's taken someone out...) 20 second penalty.

and yet:


so... where's the equity in that?

Kamakazikobishi should geta 20 place penalty for the 2 cars he hit, that guy is out of control JMHO


BTW Vettles car died I wanted him to win, and I still think Ferrari are morans for putting MS out to pasture early
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Old 06-25-2012, 10:49 AM   #880
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...I still think Ferrari are morans for putting MS out to pasture early
Still dredging this up? Ancient history. Let it go.

- Mark
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Old 06-25-2012, 10:56 AM   #881
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Still dredging this up? Ancient history. Let it go.

- Mark
LOL no kidding
2 points and only 2 finishes in the previous 7 races....up until he backed into a podium....
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Old 06-25-2012, 11:01 AM   #882
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Originally Posted by A. T. T-W View Post
Hamilton was on the racing line. Maldonado chose to attempt to pass off the racing line. No-one forced him to make the attempt. The attempt failed because Hamilton didn't cede the line to him. Hamilton was under no obligation to do so.
Always amazes me how folks can see black and white from grey.

Here the cars are at corner entry. Looks to me like Maldonado was more on the "racing line" than Hamilton who was defending the inside position aggressively.



I agree that once this game of chicken had been played at the first corner (and Maldonado lost), then Maldonado was a fault for re-entering the track unsafely - I think he was PO'd about losing this game of chicken and decided that if Hamilton was willing to risk an accident rather than give him room, then he'd do exactly the same at the next corner. So technically, you can certainly say that Maldonado was at fault in the accident and if I were forced to assign blame, I would agree with the stewards. But such a decision ignores the entire context. And for this reason, the whole thing should have just gone down as a racing incident.

What is supposed to happen in this situation is that both drivers give each other room and run side-by-side until one or the other gets clearly ahead. This was what happened in this corner numerous times during the race - drivers were respectful and didn't insist on having the whole track. It is at the point where either driver insists on having the entire track without compromise that accidents occur. Hamilton was a dick at this point to be insisting on the whole track with his tire/speed situation. If Maldonado hadn't yielded and went off the track they probably would have collided at the first corner and I doubt the stewards would have done anything because at this first corner no car clearly had complete rights to the entire track.

- Mark

markjenn screwed with this post 06-25-2012 at 11:17 AM
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Old 06-25-2012, 11:21 AM   #883
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On lap 2, Raikonnen tried exactly the same move on Maldonado. Maldonado held the same line that Hamilton later took. The difference was that Raikonnen lifted once he was off the circuit and rejoined behind Maldonado (something that Maldonaldo later claimed wasn't possible).

On lap 10, Grosjean passed Hamilton in the same place and made it stick. The difference this time was that Grosjean had got alongside Hamilton in the preceding corner and stayed on the circuit.

The difference seems to be that on lap 56 Maldonado wasn't far enough alongside to make the move stick.
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Old 06-25-2012, 11:59 AM   #884
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Originally Posted by A. T. T-W View Post
On lap 10, Grosjean passed Hamilton in the same place and made it stick. The difference this time was that Grosjean had got alongside Hamilton in the preceding corner and stayed on the circuit.
To my eyes, the difference is that Hamilton wasn't a dick and gave Grosjean some room (i.e., he didn't run him off the track).



Or perhaps this was at a point in the race where Hamilton's tires allowed him to give Grosjean some room - some folks think Hamilton had no choice but to run Maldonado off the track as his tires were so bad he had to use the entire track to make the corner.

However you want to pitch it, Hamilton DID run Maldonado off the track in the preceding corner to the one where Maldonado retaliated.

- Mark
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Old 06-25-2012, 12:12 PM   #885
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A. T. T-W View Post
On lap 2, Raikonnen tried exactly the same move on Maldonado. Maldonado held the same line that Hamilton later took. The difference was that Raikonnen lifted once he was off the circuit and rejoined behind Maldonado (something that Maldonaldo later claimed wasn't possible).

On lap 10, Grosjean passed Hamilton in the same place and made it stick. The difference this time was that Grosjean had got alongside Hamilton in the preceding corner and stayed on the circuit.

The difference seems to be that on lap 56 Maldonado wasn't far enough alongside to make the move stick.
+1 I saw many attempts at passing in that corner throughout the race, the driver attempting the pass got off the throttle once they realized there was no room to complete the pass...Maldonado did not...that is why they crashed. Hamilton's tires were so trashed that all Maldonado had to do was wait and make a clean pass under the DRS, but he got excited and screwed up...simple.
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