The Official 2012 F1 Thread. Spoilers possible!

[srad600]

Originally Posted by markjenn

The video I posted with Grosjean directly contradicts your statement. Grosjean had no more room than Maldonado, but did complete the pass - the only difference was that Hamilton gave Grosjean more room than Maldonado (perhaps because his tires allowed him to). And in any event, the crash was due to Maldonado's actions in the subsequent corner, not in the one you're talking about.

- Mark

OK, I'll give you my "correct corner" error and raise you one "you just argued against your own point in the statement above". First you say "Grosean had no more room than Maldonado", then you say "Hamilton gave grosjean more room than Maldonado"...in the same sentence? You realize those two portions of that sentence are in direct contradiction to one another, right?

Semantics aside, it was a screwy crash that could easily have been avoided if either man had deferred just a bit...neither did and they are both paying for it. I'm looking forward to the next race.

[Fajita Dave]

[markjenn]

Originally Posted by srad600

OK, I'll give you my "correct corner" error and raise you one "you just argued against your own point in the statement above". First you say "Grosean had no more room than Maldonado", then you say "Hamilton gave grosjean more room than Maldonado"...in the same sentence? You realize those two portions of that sentence are in direct contradiction to one another, right?

Guilty of poor wording, but I was referring to two different aspects of the corner. Grosjean had no more room than Maldonado at corner entry, but was allowed more room at corner exit because Hamilton gave it to him. IOW, the only real difference between the Grosjean pass and the Maldonado attempted pass was Hamilton allowing Grosjean some room to make the corner while giving Maldonado no room at all. If you watch the videos of these two passes they are essentially identical in every detail EXCEPT Hamilton giving Grosjean enough room to stay on the track.




- Mark

[Fajita Dave]

Hamilton's entry speed and line didn't really let him give Maldonado anymore room. I'm sure he didn't mind pushing Maldonado off the track but there isn't always the option of turning sharper when you've already maxed out the cars capability. With Hammy's early apex and late braking point by the time the car was able to get him back to the right they were already at the entrance of the left turn and that's what Hamilton did. I'm not saying he couldn't have turned sharper though... only him and his team know what the car had left in it.

When I first saw it I said it was Hamilton's fault too but it was just a racing incident. Once they both committed to the corner they had about 1 1/2 to 2 seconds to decide on what they could do next. They both made the wrong decision. I think Maldonado had a few more options on how to avoid it. Since he was on a wider arch through the corner and newer tires he had traction left available to brake and alter his direction compared to Hamilton who I'm guessing had his car maxed out on Gs. If Hamilton hit the brakes it would only push him wider into Maldonado because the front tires didn't have anything left to give. It also looked like Maldonado had about 3 feet before he was going to hit the speed bump to keep people from cutting the course. That 3 feet was most likely enough to avoid the wreck.

[markjenn]

Originally Posted by Fajita Dave

When I first saw it I said it was Hamilton's fault too but it was just a racing incident.

Assigning blame in these sorts of situations is a boondoggle. That's why I agree... the stewards should have just let this one go. My gripe in general is that they intervene way too often. Fortunately, their decision doesn't have much consequence - perhaps they knew this when they made it.

- Mark

[HoneyBunz]

That is no racing incident!
Maldo was 4 wheels off the track and he tried to re-enter at the apex.
He couldn't legally pass Hamilton, so WTF.
He was playin' chicken with Hamilton.
I hate to see bush league shit like that ruin a race on the last lap.

[Fajita Dave]

Originally Posted by HoneyBunz

That is no racing incident!
Maldo was 4 wheels off the track and he tried to re-enter at the apex.
He couldn't legally pass Hamilton, so WTF.
He was playin' chicken with Hamilton.
I hate to see bush league shit like that ruin a race on the last lap.

So why was it that he had all 4 wheels off the track? I'm pretty sure there was this other car that pushed him out there wasn't it? Don't the rules state that you always have to leave a space if there is a car along side of you? They were both at fault because they both screwed up at the same time which makes it a racing incident. If either one of them changed their direction they wouldn't have wrecked.

I don't care what the rules say, if someone puts you in danger of being wrecked than you AVOID IT AT ALL COSTS. At the most you lost a few positions instead of being wrecked out of the race whether the person who put you there was right or wrong. Neither of them did a single thing to avoid an accident so that makes them both at fault. They crashed because they were both fighting for position for the same piece of track at the same time.

[HoneyBunz]

Originally Posted by Fajita Dave

So why was it that he had all 4 wheels off the track? I'm pretty sure there was this other car that pushed him out there wasn't it? Don't the rules state that you always have to leave a space if there is a car along side of you? They were both at fault because they both screwed up at the same time which makes it a racing incident. If either one of them changed their direction they wouldn't have wrecked.

I don't care what the rules say, if someone puts you in danger of being wrecked than you AVOID IT AT ALL COSTS. At the most you lost a few positions instead of being wrecked out of the race whether the person who put you there was right or wrong. Neither of them did a single thing to avoid an accident so that makes them both at fault. They crashed because they were both fighting for position for the same piece of track at the same time.

Off track is off track. No if, ands, or buts. Nobody "pushed" him. He went off by choice.
The 20 sec. penalty he got wasn't enough.

[markjenn]

Grosjean was lucky as hell he didn't wreck with Hamilton early in the race - they radically overlapped wheels. A few races ago, Grosjean was getting criticism for poor judgment and crashing, now he is the second coming for pulling off a few close passes. In reality, he has been taking the same risks all year.

The difference between goat and hero over a short period of time is basically random chance.

- Mark

[markjenn]

Originally Posted by HoneyBunz

Off track is off track. No if, ands, or buts. Nobody "pushed" him. He went off by choice.

Another who is able to see the world with binary glasses.

Sorry, but you're way out of line. He had no choice (other than crashing). Have you even bothered to look at the videos?

- Mark

[Ragin Rabbi]

Originally Posted by markjenn

Another who is able to see the world with binary glasses.

Sorry, but you're way out of line. He had no choice (other than crashing). Have you even bothered to look at the videos?

- Mark

Or race?

[g®eg]

2012 helmet montage

[A. T. T-W]

Originally Posted by Fajita Dave

So why was it that he had all 4 wheels off the track? I'm pretty sure there was this other car that pushed him out there wasn't it? Don't the rules state that you always have to leave a space if there is a car along side of you?

No. Here's what the rules say:

20.2 Drivers must use the track at all times. For the avoidance of doubt the white lines defining the track edges are considered to be part of the track but the kerbs are not.
A driver will be judged to have left the track if no part of the car remains in contact with the track.
Should a car leave the track the driver may rejoin, however, this may only be done when it is safe to do so and without gaining any advantage.
A driver may not deliberately leave the track without justifiable reason.

20.3 More than one change of direction to defend a position is not permitted. Any driver moving back towards the racing line, having earlier defended his position off‐line, should leave at least one car width between his own car and the edge of the track on the approach to the corner.

20.4 Manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers, such as deliberate crowding of a car beyond the edge of the track or any other abnormal change of direction, are not permitted.

20.5 As soon as a car is caught by another car which is about to lap it during the race the driver must allow the faster driver past at the first available opportunity. If the driver who has been caught does not allow the faster driver past, waved blue flags will be shown to indicate that he must allow the following driver to overtake.

Originally Posted by Fajita Dave

I don't care what the rules say

Make-up your mind.

20.4 refers to deliberate crowding, the stewards will have not only interviewed the drivers, they'd have had more camera evidence than we saw and they will have had telemetry from both cars. If the latter did not show that Hamilton steered towards Maldonado, there's no evidence that he deliberately crowded him.

The onus was on Maldonado to make the pass safely, without causing the car he was attempting to pass to be damaged or hindered. He failed. It was entirely his actions that caused the incident. He chose the time and the place to pass.

The fact that Hamilton has been as guilty of stupidity in the past doesn't make Maldonado's stupidity on this occasion any less worthy of penalty.

[markjenn]

Originally Posted by A. T. T-W

The onus was on Maldonado to make the pass safely, without causing the car he was attempting to pass to be damaged or hindered.

Since you're big into quoting rules, where is this rule?

Again, who is at fault in this incident is murky and you can argue that Hamilton's "crowding" was inadvertent, perhaps out of his control, or that he had more right to the corner than Maldo, but my word, let's call a spade a spade - he absolutely, positively did run Maldo off the track.

- Mark

[wxwax]

20.4 is a joke. They simply don't seem interested in enforcing it.

Let's not forget that Hamilton was as guilty of stupidity as Maldonado.