Franken Guzzi - hence Frankuzzi - a Desert Guzzi is born - Page 2

Desertpistons · 12-01-2011, 09:11 AM

Yes, good eyes!!!! old dakar xt500 tank

Not sure 100% on this tank, it may be too big for the bike but I will see and make a decision soon

Quote:

Originally Posted by Throbbing Missile

Nice plan, I've wanted to build a small block trail bike like the old TTs and NTXs for a while. V35s and 50s can be had dirt cheap here and would be a fine starting point.
Either that or I use the 1100 Sport motor and Tonti frame that are sitting in the corner of the workshop and make a real beast - a Quota on speed

Tank looks good, what's it from? aftermarket XT500?

Desertpistons · 12-01-2011, 03:21 PM

Howdy and buonasera

I have inspected the frame and these are the reinforcement -in blue- we will do the main frame. They respect the baja bike more or less. We will also cut the UGLY passenger peg mount. Note this bike that has Baja parts has been rebuilt with the stock tt frame. Apparently the bike was in an accident of some sort...

Maxacceleration · 12-01-2011, 04:45 PM

Quite the collection of bikes you have there Mr pistons.
I will enjoy your project.

Adam R · 12-02-2011, 05:20 AM

Hi - nice looking work, I have no doubt it'll go well.
In case you speak Italian (although there are quite a few English speakers too) here's a site that might interest you:
http://www.guzzienduro.it/
Lots of TT/NTX experience out there.
Good luck!
:)

chris a · 12-03-2011, 08:28 AM

Just noticed that there are some excellant photos here
http://www.philaphoto.com/imageLibra...php?album=1134
of one of the Bajas in Oz...
Nice to see a bike in this kind of oily rag condition !

Desertpistons · 12-03-2011, 07:44 PM

Thanks for the link to the Baja.

Lets discuss the bike in general and talk about suspension.

To be right with the age and period of the bike, the choices for the forks are 2. Either the Marzocchi Magnum m1 as the Baja bike or the Whitepower 4054 upside down forks. I believe the White power are better forks and beisde dont really want to build a Baja replica. So here you go with my the choice.

Regarding the back shocks I will probably end having them manufacture based on my weight and riding skill if I cannot find them used in the right lenght and in the right conditions. The marzocchi original shocks (baja) are impossible to find, perhaps some vintage ohlins with a separate reservoir. I dream. We will see when we get there

Let's talk about the differential and swing arm. The tt as the NTX have an aluminum swing arm and a very delicate final drive. I could reinforce and elongate that swingarm but I am stuck with that bad final drive.

The baja bikes raced with the big block guzzi swing arm properly elongated and reinforced. My only option is to take down the baja swing arm and build a structure to be able to replicate the swingarm and maintain the correct geometry. The shaft has to be elongated too. Like the hpn BMWs; it is the same music the only difference is that g/s has a strong final drive!!! The pic above illustrate the elongated swingarm and different final drive

So here I go, got the right final drive (big block guzzi), 2 swing arms,( i will cannibalize one to build the other swing arm) and a shaft that i have already elongated. I also got a used wheel that will work with that final drive, the stock didnt anymore. I didnt go with the 17' wheel but rather the 18' wheel. I have now a tt/ntx swing arm, a final drive, 2 shocks, a wheel with caliper mount, a back caliper, an axle and a rotor to toss or sell at an auction..

Pics are of the new wheel, the elongated shaft, new back fender and bit and pieces of my taken apart guzzi

chris a · 12-04-2011, 12:45 PM

Good stuff piston...
I also know of several NTX/TT's that had the UJ blow , taking out the swinging arm and in one case also the gearbox back end ! I think this might also be why the Baja's had the big bloc UJ and s/arm as they are much stronger-the UJ will also allow much more movement as it has double couplings.
I also wondered if they also played around with the drivebox ratio's on thye Baja's as a result...the small block ones only come in one ratio. Surely the extra weight was a disadvantage ???!!!!

Desertpistons · 12-04-2011, 01:25 PM

Thanks chris A

You are right, better movement, less prone to metal fatigue is the double coupling. Regarding the final drive, I have actually 2 at home. One from a le mans (way too long of a ratio) and one from an eldorado which may work well. I need to check the ratios. I am pretty sure Guzzi guys would switch to a longer ratio if the dakar etage required a faster setting. That makes sense to me. I know that the last NTX were all 750s, did they have the same differential as the 650 ntxs? That i don't know

Quote:

Originally Posted by chris a

Good stuff piston...
I also know of several NTX/TT's that had the UJ blow , taking out the swinging arm and in one case also the gearbox back end ! I think this might also be why the Baja's had the big bloc UJ and s/arm as they are much stronger-the UJ will also allow much more movement as it has double couplings.
I also wondered if they also played around with the drivebox ratio's on thye Baja's as a result...the small block ones only come in one ratio. Surely the extra weight was a disadvantage ???!!!!

Desertpistons · 12-04-2011, 01:54 PM

.............I forgot to reply to weight question. Yes the big block guzzi drive is definitely heavier but it doesn't bother me too much. What bothers me is the weight of the back disk brake. That wheel with that brake weights a ton. Need to find a solution. I have looked at the le mans disk that is drilled, I may save a kilo there.I will see. maybe an alum flange and an aftermarket disk. I will be surprised if anybody else have not changed that set up on a street bike...

Quote:

Originally Posted by chris a

Good stuff piston...
I also know of several NTX/TT's that had the UJ blow , taking out the swinging arm and in one case also the gearbox back end ! I think this might also be why the Baja's had the big bloc UJ and s/arm as they are much stronger-the UJ will also allow much more movement as it has double couplings.
I also wondered if they also played around with the drivebox ratio's on thye Baja's as a result...the small block ones only come in one ratio. Surely the extra weight was a disadvantage ???!!!!

Throbbing Missile · 12-04-2011, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Desertpistons

.............I forgot to reply to weight question. Yes the big block guzzi drive is definitely heavier but it doesn't bother me too much. What bothers me is the weight of the back disk brake. That wheel with that brake weights a ton. Need to find a solution. I have looked at the le mans disk that is drilled, I may save a kilo there.I will see. maybe an alum flange and an aftermarket disk. I will be surprised if anybody else have not changed that set up on a street bike...

It would be fairly simple to bosh something together with a more modern setup. You could make most discs fit with a simple adapter ring or else have a custom disc laser cut. One of the little twin opposed Brembo calipers (the rear counterpart to the 6800s) used on the later bikes hung off a bracket hewn from some 12mm ali plate and job's a good 'un.

Would it be worth using the floating bevel box off a Sport or V11? Long travel dirt suspension will be prone to jacking and the swinging arm itself may be easier to make.

Precis · 12-04-2011, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chris a

Just noticed that there are some excellant photos here
http://www.philaphoto.com/imageLibra...php?album=1134
of one of the Bajas in Oz...
Nice to see a bike in this kind of oily rag condition !

It was tarted up for the photos - it's in rather a sad state really - even for those that prefer "patina" and "autheticity".
The owner has a very large stable and to his credit many of them get ridden, but the rarity of the Baja would convince me to at least prevent it rusting any more.
But it's his bike, not mine; I've bought a bike from this chap and eventually gave up trying to rebuild it and just moved it along - only time I've ever sold a bike in pieces....

Krasniewski · 12-04-2011, 06:45 PM

Wow - cool to see something new (er... different).

Might look good in the "some assembly required" forum...

Desertpistons · 12-04-2011, 08:02 PM

You maybe right, and i will keep it in consideration but I would then loose the historical authenticity of the bike. I want to build a bike that could have come out from racing shop in the mid eighties. I have seen German NTXs with recent Guzzi engines and I thought over to do the same with my bike but then I reconsider it and decided to go my way. I own a Baja so it just a job to copy that set up and replicate it. I know who can do it and i know it will work well..

Quote:

Originally Posted by Throbbing Missile

It would be fairly simple to bosh something together with a more modern setup. You could make most discs fit with a simple adapter ring or else have a custom disc laser cut. One of the little twin opposed Brembo calipers (the rear counterpart to the 6800s) used on the later bikes hung off a bracket hewn from some 12mm ali plate and job's a good 'un.

Would it be worth using the floating bevel box off a Sport or V11? Long travel dirt suspension will be prone to jacking and the swinging arm itself may be easier to make.

Throbbing Missile · 12-05-2011, 12:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Desertpistons

You maybe right, and i will keep it in consideration but I would then loose the historical authenticity of the bike. I want to build a bike that could have come out from racing shop in the mid eighties. I have seen German NTXs with recent Guzzi engines and I thought over to do the same with my bike but then I reconsider it and decided to go my way. I own a Baja so it just a job to copy that set up and replicate it. I know who can do it and i know it will work well..

I completely understand. It's often very hard to draw the line with a project as each mod tends to lead to further mods.

I'm pretty sure that Tony Foale and Dr John were using floating boxes around the mid eighties on road/race bikes. I'm quite surprised that the idea didn't make it to the Bajas. I've ridden early monolever G/Ss and the handling was horrific (although many other factors contributed...) - I can't imagine it'd be easy to float the front over the dunes on one of those buggers. I take it the Baja handles better than that?

Whatever you decide to do, post loads of photos, I'm very keen to see how this turns out.

chris a · 12-05-2011, 12:43 PM

I know that the last NTX were all 750s, did they have the same differential as the 650 ntxs? That i don't know[/QUOTE]

I used to think that All the smallbloc diffs were the same ratio so I just checked and found out that they are all 8/31 except the Breva and V 7 Classic which use 8/33.
In the Guzzi smallblock drivetrain they get the different ratio's from varying the primary/input gears which makes good economic sense.

12-01-2011, 03:21 PM	#17
Desertpistons ^OP 80s dakar Joined: Jun 2005 Location: Texas Oddometer: 244	Franken Guzzi - hence Frankuzzi - a Desert Guzzi is born Howdy and buonasera I have inspected the frame and these are the reinforcement -in blue- we will do the main frame. They respect the baja bike more or less. We will also cut the UGLY passenger peg mount. Note this bike that has Baja parts has been rebuilt with the stock tt frame. Apparently the bike was in an accident of some sort... Attached Images __________________ My bikes My stuff for sale Facebook Desertpistons screwed with this post 10-13-2012 at 11:03 AM

12-02-2011, 05:20 AM	#19
Adam R Adventurer Joined: Nov 2011 Location: Sunny East Midlands, UK Oddometer: 99	Guzzi Enduro Hi - nice looking work, I have no doubt it'll go well. In case you speak Italian (although there are quite a few English speakers too) here's a site that might interest you: http://www.guzzienduro.it/ Lots of TT/NTX experience out there. Good luck! :)

12-03-2011, 07:44 PM	#21
Desertpistons ^OP 80s dakar Joined: Jun 2005 Location: Texas Oddometer: 244	Franken Guzzi - hence Frankuzzi - a Desert Guzzi is born Thanks for the link to the Baja. Lets discuss the bike in general and talk about suspension. To be right with the age and period of the bike, the choices for the forks are 2. Either the Marzocchi Magnum m1 as the Baja bike or the Whitepower 4054 upside down forks. I believe the White power are better forks and beisde dont really want to build a Baja replica. So here you go with my the choice. Regarding the back shocks I will probably end having them manufacture based on my weight and riding skill if I cannot find them used in the right lenght and in the right conditions. The marzocchi original shocks (baja) are impossible to find, perhaps some vintage ohlins with a separate reservoir. I dream. We will see when we get there Let's talk about the differential and swing arm. The tt as the NTX have an aluminum swing arm and a very delicate final drive. I could reinforce and elongate that swingarm but I am stuck with that bad final drive. The baja bikes raced with the big block guzzi swing arm properly elongated and reinforced. My only option is to take down the baja swing arm and build a structure to be able to replicate the swingarm and maintain the correct geometry. The shaft has to be elongated too. Like the hpn BMWs; it is the same music the only difference is that g/s has a strong final drive!!! The pic above illustrate the elongated swingarm and different final drive So here I go, got the right final drive (big block guzzi), 2 swing arms,( i will cannibalize one to build the other swing arm) and a shaft that i have already elongated. I also got a used wheel that will work with that final drive, the stock didnt anymore. I didnt go with the 17' wheel but rather the 18' wheel. I have now a tt/ntx swing arm, a final drive, 2 shocks, a wheel with caliper mount, a back caliper, an axle and a rotor to toss or sell at an auction.. Pics are of the new wheel, the elongated shaft, new back fender and bit and pieces of my taken apart guzzi Attached Images __________________ My bikes My stuff for sale Facebook Desertpistons screwed with this post 12-03-2011 at 07:51 PM

12-04-2011, 06:45 PM	#27
Krasniewski I don't ride much. Joined: Feb 2008 Location: Coronado Oddometer: 950	Wow - cool to see something new (er... different). Might look good in the "some assembly required" forum... __________________ --------------------- KLRE650 Build thread. Ryca Scrambler Build. __________________

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12-03-2011, 08:28 AM	#20
chris a Adventurer Joined: Oct 2011 Location: Southern France Oddometer: 40	Just noticed that there are some excellant photos here http://www.philaphoto.com/imageLibra...php?album=1134 of one of the Bajas in Oz... Nice to see a bike in this kind of oily rag condition !

12-04-2011, 12:45 PM	#22
chris a Adventurer Joined: Oct 2011 Location: Southern France Oddometer: 40	Good stuff piston... I also know of several NTX/TT's that had the UJ blow , taking out the swinging arm and in one case also the gearbox back end ! I think this might also be why the Baja's had the big bloc UJ and s/arm as they are much stronger-the UJ will also allow much more movement as it has double couplings. I also wondered if they also played around with the drivebox ratio's on thye Baja's as a result...the small block ones only come in one ratio. Surely the extra weight was a disadvantage ???!!!!

12-05-2011, 12:43 PM	#30
chris a Adventurer Joined: Oct 2011 Location: Southern France Oddometer: 40	I know that the last NTX were all 750s, did they have the same differential as the 650 ntxs? That i don't know[/QUOTE] I used to think that All the smallbloc diffs were the same ratio so I just checked and found out that they are all 8/31 except the Breva and V 7 Classic which use 8/33. In the Guzzi smallblock drivetrain they get the different ratio's from varying the primary/input gears which makes good economic sense.