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Old 07-31-2012, 11:23 AM   #211
Zuber
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I just discovered this thread. Good read.

Most of your technical questions about the 500 are over in another thread>
http://advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=682150
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Old 07-31-2012, 11:41 AM   #212
ABYSS
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XCW here

Quote:
Originally Posted by HickOnACrick View Post
Yeah, if I had ordered the EXC, I would still need to remove the emissions stuff and probably remap, then I would remove the light, the battery, the taillight, and the turn signals from the EXC and replace them with Baja-proven gear. Basically, for my needs, the EXC would just fill up a cardboard box with new shiny lactic that I will never use.

Regarding the stator- my dealer says its the same size/output, but the KTM website doesn't show the specs.

Anyone with an XCW that can chime in on specs of the battery, stator, triple clamp, exact whelp dimensions, etc?
the XCW and EXC share the same engine the only differences are - sprockets, the EXC has the emmissions stuff, and the EXC- ECU, will need to be reworked if the emissions stuff is removed. the XCW will not as it doesnt have it. , Also in 2012 the EXC had less durable rims and the XCW had the stronger series. form the info I have read though the wheel issue is going to be gone on the 2013's, EXC has all the street legal crap and the XCW does not.

If you read the threads here alot of folks that have pruchased a EXC and would haev been better served and farther ahead $ wise to get he XCW and make it street legal. If there geographc locations were permitting.
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Old 07-31-2012, 09:27 PM   #213
helotaxi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ABYSS View Post
the XCW and EXC share the same engine the only differences are - sprockets, the EXC has the emmissions stuff, and the EXC- ECU, will need to be reworked if the emissions stuff is removed. the XCW will not as it doesnt have it. , Also in 2012 the EXC had less durable rims and the XCW had the stronger series. form the info I have read though the wheel issue is going to be gone on the 2013's, EXC has all the street legal crap and the XCW does not.

If you read the threads here alot of folks that have pruchased a EXC and would haev been better served and farther ahead $ wise to get he XCW and make it street legal. If there geographc locations were permitting.
Not sure where you got the idea that anything has to be done to the ECU on the EXC with a de-smog. Simply isn't true. If you want to play with the fuel mapping, fine, but my bike runs great with the stock tune and the SAS and canister removed. Simple adjustment to the idle speed screw is all that was required. Not only was my EXC street legal as delivered (so I could ride it immediately rather than having to wait for any mods to be completed) but the mods I have done to it (other than the de-smog which cost a whole $20 in parts) would have been done to the XC-W as well. That and there was an EXC available from the local(ish) dealer and they didn't have an XC-W. I got a good price as well. Haven't had a problem with the wheels, but I don't run balls to the wall through the rock gardens either. If I manage to ruin one I'll upgrade at that time.
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Old 08-01-2012, 06:42 AM   #214
ABYSS
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not and Idea just the facts

Quote:
Originally Posted by helotaxi View Post
Not sure where you got the idea that anything has to be done to the ECU on the EXC with a de-smog. Simply isn't true. If you want to play with the fuel mapping, fine, but my bike runs great with the stock tune and the SAS and canister removed. Simple adjustment to the idle speed screw is all that was required. Not only was my EXC street legal as delivered (so I could ride it immediately rather than having to wait for any mods to be completed) but the mods I have done to it (other than the de-smog which cost a whole $20 in parts) would have been done to the XC-W as well. That and there was an EXC available from the local(ish) dealer and they didn't have an XC-W. I got a good price as well. Haven't had a problem with the wheels, but I don't run balls to the wall through the rock gardens either. If I manage to ruin one I'll upgrade at that time.
Helotaxi, do me a favor and read back. I was replying to someones question reguarding the differences between the two. I am not BASHING the XCW's restricted brother.

The XCW and EXC have differnet maps that is because the EXC has additional equipment that has to be compensated for. If you read back threw this thread and a few others you will see several folks have issues with there EXC's and the maps they have. Does that mean you are not happy with the performance of yours NO but truth be told if an EXC has been desmogged and the ECU hasnt been recalibrated then it is not as efficiant as you could be. The fact that you could ride your bike strait away means absoltuley nothing to me. The EXC is $300 more and several EXC and XCW folks hate the lighting, and on the EXC's the rear turn "exhaust side" signal have fallen off a few. Depending on where you are gegraphicaly if you make a XCW street legal you are father ahead by saving the 300 bucks and putting it towards better lighting.

Due to advanced planning and paitenance my XCW in less than 24 hours after I picked it up was street legal and plated thanks to SICASS racing and less than 100.00.

Plus I have 200 left for the "MODS" that I wanted.

As far as the wheels again it isnt a punch it is just a factual comparison nothing more.

they way I see it we are all smart enough to drink the ORANGE koolaid and isnt that all that really matters.
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Old 08-01-2012, 08:08 AM   #215
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ABYSS View Post
Helotaxi, do me a favor and read back. I was replying to someones question reguarding the differences between the two. I am not BASHING the XCW's restricted brother.

The XCW and EXC have differnet maps that is because the EXC has additional equipment that has to be compensated for
The different map doesn't have anything to do with the smog equipment and everything to do with the emissions limits imposed by the EPA. The map would be the same whether the smog equipment were there or not if the goal was to meet EPA requirements. The smog equipment doesn't really do anything to affect the engine itself and therefore doesn't affect the map and fuel scheduling. It's all external and the biggest piece is on the exhaust side after the exhaust. It doesn't do anything to reduce actual emissions by weight per unit fuel burned, it only decreases emissions as a percentage of what comes out of the pipe by allowing extra in into the pipe. It's a total false reduction and its legality should tell you most everything that you really need to know about the emissions regulations in the US. The charcoal cannister simply allows extra air into the intake tract when the solenoid is open and has no effect on the fuel map either. You simply go a couple of clicks up on the idle speed to compensate. If anything the removal of the smog equipment would richen the map up, which is what everyone wants. Other than tank evaporation, removal of the smog equipment has no effect on emissions and the map is still lean to meet the emissions target. You wold make the same ECU adjustments to richen the map wheter the smog gear was there or not. Exactly the same adjustments. The different ECUs and maps between the two models are all about the EXC meeting emissions regulations and the extra stuff is completely independent of the ECU and map. The XC-W is not so constrained, but you could actually add the smog equipment to the XC-w and not affect how it ran.
Quote:
they way I see it we are all smart enough to drink the ORANGE koolaid and isnt that all that really matters.
Not trying to be disagreeable at all. Simply clarifying some points and why I chose the EXC (suited my needs immediately and, more importantly, was actually available).
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Old 08-01-2012, 08:39 AM   #216
ABYSS
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Eek

Quote:
Originally Posted by helotaxi View Post
The different map doesn't have anything to do with the smog equipment and everything to do with the emissions limits imposed by the EPA. The map would be the same whether the smog equipment were there or not if the goal was to meet EPA requirements. The smog equipment doesn't really do anything to affect the engine itself and therefore doesn't affect the map and fuel scheduling. It's all external and the biggest piece is on the exhaust side after the exhaust. It doesn't do anything to reduce actual emissions by weight per unit fuel burned, it only decreases emissions as a percentage of what comes out of the pipe by allowing extra in into the pipe. It's a total false reduction and its legality should tell you most everything that you really need to know about the emissions regulations in the US. The charcoal cannister simply allows extra air into the intake tract when the solenoid is open and has no effect on the fuel map either. You simply go a couple of clicks up on the idle speed to compensate. If anything the removal of the smog equipment would richen the map up, which is what everyone wants. Other than tank evaporation, removal of the smog equipment has no effect on emissions and the map is still lean to meet the emissions target. You wold make the same ECU adjustments to richen the map wheter the smog gear was there or not. Exactly the same adjustments. The different ECUs and maps between the two models are all about the EXC meeting emissions regulations and the extra stuff is completely independent of the ECU and map. The XC-W is not so constrained, but you could actually add the smog equipment to the XC-w and not affect how it ran.
Not trying to be disagreeable at all. Simply clarifying some points and why I chose the EXC (suited my needs immediately and, more importantly, was actually available).
I am without words . Wel maybe not comletely.....

You may want to re-read what you wrote above. So if the equipment that you state has no effect on the map then you shouldnt have ot make any changes to the bike other than remove or disable the equipment.

Then is the same paragraph you also state your soluition for fixing a richer condition due to emmision equipment being removed is to just turn up the idle?? I could swear you said "The smog equipment doesn't really do anything to affect the engine itself and therefore doesn't affect the map and fuel scheduling"

Then the XCW sentenence is yet another contradiction.

So which is it does the emmission stuff effect the system or not?
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Old 08-01-2012, 09:52 AM   #217
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From my understanding the US exc runs a leaner map so as to conform to the emissions standards. The xcw runs a fuller feul map as it does not have the compliance issues the US xcw runs the 701 map as does the aussie exc
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Old 08-01-2012, 10:46 AM   #218
helotaxi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ABYSS View Post
I am without words . Wel maybe not comletely.....

You may want to re-read what you wrote above. So if the equipment that you state has no effect on the map then you shouldnt have ot make any changes to the bike other than remove or disable the equipment.

Then is the same paragraph you also state your soluition for fixing a richer condition due to emmision equipment being removed is to just turn up the idle?? I could swear you said "The smog equipment doesn't really do anything to affect the engine itself and therefore doesn't affect the map and fuel scheduling"

Then the XCW sentenence is yet another contradiction.

So which is it does the emmission stuff effect the system or not?
What's the contradiction? The smog equipment DOES NOT affect the engine fuel scheduling. The ECU does NOT have to account for its existance. The only reason that an idle speed adjustment is required is that the vent for the evap cannister is after the throttle plate. It is basically a leak that allows more air into the intake. Plugging that hole requires that the throttle plate be opened slightly to maintain the same airflow at idle. That's exactly what the idle speed adjustment knob does; it is a mechanical adjustment that has nothign to do with the ECU or the map. The SAS has zero effect on anything as far as the engine is concerned. Where did I say otherwise? The EXC map is a lean map designed to meet emissions. The XC-W map doesn't have to meet emissions and as such can be and is richer. Also the EXC ECU is locked to prevent tampering, per EPA regs. Since there are no comliance issues with the XC-W no lockout is required. That's exactly what I stated above. Again, where's the contradiction?

helotaxi screwed with this post 08-01-2012 at 11:00 AM
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Old 08-01-2012, 03:51 PM   #219
Grunthunter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by helotaxi View Post
What's the contradiction? The smog equipment DOES NOT affect the engine fuel scheduling. The ECU does NOT have to account for its existance. The only reason that an idle speed adjustment is required is that the vent for the evap cannister is after the throttle plate. It is basically a leak that allows more air into the intake. Plugging that hole requires that the throttle plate be opened slightly to maintain the same airflow at idle. That's exactly what the idle speed adjustment knob does; it is a mechanical adjustment that has nothign to do with the ECU or the map. The SAS has zero effect on anything as far as the engine is concerned. Where did I say otherwise? The EXC map is a lean map designed to meet emissions. The XC-W map doesn't have to meet emissions and as such can be and is richer. Also the EXC ECU is locked to prevent tampering, per EPA regs. Since there are no comliance issues with the XC-W no lockout is required. That's exactly what I stated above. Again, where's the contradiction?
Helotaxi, a lot of ppl have sucessfully remapped the standard EXC 651 restricted map (Euro and US EXC) for the unrestricted 701 map (US XCW and Aussie EXC) no problem with the right software, all reporting the bike runs significantly better. It appears all the maps are slightly lean and the best bang for buck is the JD tuner which enriches the fuel right across the rev range.
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Old 08-01-2012, 06:56 PM   #220
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grunthunter View Post
Helotaxi, a lot of ppl have sucessfully remapped the standard EXC 651 restricted map (Euro and US EXC) for the unrestricted 701 map (US XCW and Aussie EXC) no problem with the right software, all reporting the bike runs significantly better. It appears all the maps are slightly lean and the best bang for buck is the JD tuner which enriches the fuel right across the rev range.
I won't argue with that at all, but that wasn't the point of contention. The issue was what does (or in reality, doesn't) the smog equipment have to do with the fuel map on the EXC.
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Old 08-05-2012, 10:31 PM   #221
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Both the emission systems used on the EXC are downstream of the ECU with no feed back.

The air injector lets more air into the exhaust, essentially a huge exhaust leak that adds to the volume of gas coming out the exhaust. More volume means the percentage of pollutants coming out the exhaust is lower. But, you still get the same amount of pollutants weather this this device is hooked up or not.

The charcoal canister and gas tank capture system actually reduce the VOC being put into the air. It captures the fumes coming off the gas tank (and off the carb on the 530's) and burns them in the engine. If you keep the bike upright, never overfill the tank and never park it in the sun when full, then this system will work OK. But, once raw fuel goes out the overflow pipe and gets trapped in this system, your engine will run erratically and may not run at all after a tip over. On the BMW's it would even lock up the motor. The ECU controls the venting from the charcoal canister into the intake with an electrical solenoid. The ECU does not know if this solenoid is even connected or not, there is no feedback. This system allows a little air to leak past the throttle body all the time, which makes the idle slightly higher. When you pull this system, you lower the air leak and need to make it up by raising the idle. The ECU can't tell where the air is coming from, through the TB or leaking in from the Evap system.

The EXC and XC-W's have different MAP's, but they are very similar and labeled 'California Green Sticker' compliant. These are 'restricted' maps, they don't respond to the different MAP plugs, they don't allow modification with the User Setting Tool. You can replace the MAP's now with the un-restricted ones for 'off-road use only' or Australia, which is way, way off road.

On a slightly different topic, KTM just got its pee-pee slapped and will no longer sell after-market slip-on mufflers for street legal bikes. They were a good source for Acropovitch and FMF exhaust systems, but the Fed's noticed this and shut them down. I think this was mostly due to the latest Kalifornia code about only allowing stock mufflers on 2013 bikes.
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Old 08-10-2012, 03:32 PM   #222
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HickOnACrick View Post
Well, I just ordered a 2013 XCW. I opted to dual-sport the race bike rather than soup-up the dual sport. I'll keep you all posted on the progress.
It's about time!

And BTW... You will find that this is the bike you were wanting all along! I can hear you smiling now...
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Old 08-10-2012, 04:16 PM   #223
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grunthunter View Post
Helotaxi, a lot of ppl have sucessfully remapped the standard EXC 651 restricted map (Euro and US EXC) for the unrestricted 701 map (US XCW and Aussie EXC) no problem with the right software, all reporting the bike runs significantly better. It appears all the maps are slightly lean and the best bang for buck is the JD tuner which enriches the fuel right across the rev range.
By approx 16% from experience...

Original mileage = 66 mpg
JD Tuner mileage = 55 mpg

And it seems to run smother at all RPMs = good!

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Old 08-10-2012, 04:21 PM   #224
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zuber View Post
Both the emission systems used on the EXC are downstream of the ECU with no feed back.

The air injector lets more air into the exhaust, essentially a huge exhaust leak that adds to the volume of gas coming out the exhaust. More volume means the percentage of pollutants coming out the exhaust is lower. But, you still get the same amount of pollutants weather this this device is hooked up or not.

The charcoal canister and gas tank capture system actually reduce the VOC being put into the air. It captures the fumes coming off the gas tank (and off the carb on the 530's) and burns them in the engine. If you keep the bike upright, never overfill the tank and never park it in the sun when full, then this system will work OK. But, once raw fuel goes out the overflow pipe and gets trapped in this system, your engine will run erratically and may not run at all after a tip over. On the BMW's it would even lock up the motor. The ECU controls the venting from the charcoal canister into the intake with an electrical solenoid. The ECU does not know if this solenoid is even connected or not, there is no feedback. This system allows a little air to leak past the throttle body all the time, which makes the idle slightly higher. When you pull this system, you lower the air leak and need to make it up by raising the idle. The ECU can't tell where the air is coming from, through the TB or leaking in from the Evap system.

The EXC and XC-W's have different MAP's, but they are very similar and labeled 'California Green Sticker' compliant. These are 'restricted' maps, they don't respond to the different MAP plugs, they don't allow modification with the User Setting Tool. You can replace the MAP's now with the un-restricted ones for 'off-road use only' or Australia, which is way, way off road.

On a slightly different topic, KTM just got its pee-pee slapped and will no longer sell after-market slip-on mufflers for street legal bikes. They were a good source for Acropovitch and FMF exhaust systems, but the Fed's noticed this and shut them down. I think this was mostly due to the latest Kalifornia code about only allowing stock mufflers on 2013 bikes.

All quite true with a tweak. I believe that the "injected" air right outside the exhaust port actually burns some of the unburned fuel thus reducing unburned hydrocarbons. Remember the early days of EPA where they were fitting air pumps onto any engine? It improves the air but sadly, no energy is recovered.
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harcus screwed with this post 08-10-2012 at 04:35 PM
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Old 08-27-2012, 10:10 PM   #225
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super duper confused

ok all -

I have a 2013 500 EXC. I have already removed the SAS and evap canister, installed the 5.3 gal Acerbis tank (routed the vent hose through leftover hose that is attached to the left frame rail by capping the "T" connection and removed the hose plug).


Besides the plate carrier, gearing, turn signals and mirrors (already replaced with folding models) -- simply to satisfy my curiosity, what ARE the differences between my 2013 U.S. 500 EXC and a 2013 U.S. 500 XCW?

I really enjoy riding this bike and do not plan on any changes to the ECU map or exhaust at this time.


Thanks for your input.

tentative_rider screwed with this post 08-28-2012 at 06:21 AM Reason: poor grammar
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