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Old 06-14-2013, 01:44 PM   #316
E-Ticket2
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Food for thought ... one reason I chose the Golan was not only it's 10 micron rating and large filtering area ... but it's the fact that it's flow-rated for 6 gpm.

Any idea what the Fram filters are rated at?
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Old 06-14-2013, 05:18 PM   #317
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Originally Posted by E-Ticket2 View Post
Food for thought ... one reason I chose the Golan was not only it's 10 micron rating and large filtering area ... but it's the fact that it's flow-rated for 6 gpm.

Any idea what the Fram filters are rated at?
Good question. Haven't found much on the net on flow ratings or micron / particle count filtering. Filter companies are extremely vague on these subjects.

But since you mention 6 GPM let's look at that.

So, the question is "How much flow do we need?"

The calculation looks like this...

Let's assume that ...

1. Our bike gets 50 miles per gallon - I know mine does.
2. We are going to travel at 75 MPH
3. 1 hour has 60 minutes in it

Then the fuel burned is...

(1 gal / 50 miles) x (75 Mi / hr) x (1 hr/ 60 min) = .025 gal / min

What? That's so little it must be wrong!

Let's be silly...

Lets assume ...
1. We only get 10 mi / gal
2. We travel at 100 mph

Then ...(1 gal / 10 miles) x (100 Mi / hr) x (1 hr/ 60 min) = .166 gal / min

or about 2.6 oz or a little over 1/4 cup of fuel we burned in 1 minute.

I had a Chevy Blazer once that seemed that hungry. But back to the bike...

You could say that the 6 gpm filter will flow 6 / .025 = 240 times more than we need. Which always makes one feel good.

More importantly, as the filter does it's job filtering, it slowly plugs with particles thus slowing the flow. So one could also conclude that it will take some time to fill that 6 gpm filter to the point is chokes up.

Of course that is also why more filter area is always better as well.

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Old 06-14-2013, 06:43 PM   #318
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Yup!
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Old 06-15-2013, 11:06 AM   #319
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Originally Posted by harcus View Post
Good question. Haven't found much on the net on flow ratings or micron / particle count filtering. Filter companies are extremely vague on these subjects.

But since you mention 6 GPM let's look at that.

So, the question is "How much flow do we need?"

The calculation looks like this...

Let's assume that ...

1. Our bike gets 50 miles per gallon - I know mine does.
2. We are going to travel at 75 MPH
3. 1 hour has 60 minutes in it

Then the fuel burned is...

(1 gal / 50 miles) x (75 Mi / hr) x (1 hr/ 60 min) = .025 gal / min

What? That's so little it must be wrong!

Let's be silly...

Lets assume ...
1. We only get 10 mi / gal
2. We travel at 100 mph

Then ...(1 gal / 10 miles) x (100 Mi / hr) x (1 hr/ 60 min) = .166 gal / min

or about 2.6 oz or a little over 1/4 cup of fuel we burned in 1 minute.

I had a Chevy Blazer once that seemed that hungry. But back to the bike...

You could say that the 6 gpm filter will flow 6 / .025 = 240 times more than we need. Which always makes one feel good.

More importantly, as the filter does it's job filtering, it slowly plugs with particles thus slowing the flow. So one could also conclude that it will take some time to fill that 6 gpm filter to the point is chokes up.

Of course that is also why more filter area is always better as well.

I think it also matters at what PSI the filter will flow it's rate. It may be rated at 6 GPM, at 150 PSI but unless you have a fuel pump pushing at that rate, you may see a lower rate. So if our fuel pumps are pushing at a maximum of 50 PSI, then we could see a flow rate of 1/3rd or 2 GPM max.

And as you mentioned, as it gets dirty/clogged, the effectiveness of the flow rate would decrease requiring a greater PSI to get the same flow rate. Assuming we can't get past 50 PSI, it could be further reduced to the 1 GPM mark.

But like you alluded to, if you're burning a gallon a minute... you're going too fast.
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Old 06-15-2013, 11:12 AM   #320
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Originally Posted by LukasM View Post
+1000, even if I keep repeating myself...

Show me a high-ish mileage powerful KTM/Berg that has been dual sported, and I'll show you a worn countershaft that requires splitting the engine to replace. Cush hubs are a good investment, period.

RAD and Haan are more bling, but OEM (stock on older LC4 640s will fit all 125-660) works fine. Avoid Talon as they use an inferior damping system.

We'll see the same thing happening on the 500 when they start accumulating enough miles.
I'm curious about one thing. On one of the threads (here, KTM Talk or somewhere) there was mention about the cause of such wear being due to some sort of vibrational issue. That by greasing the countershaft, you reduce that type of wear, and pretty much eliminate it.

Any ideas on that?
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Old 06-15-2013, 05:20 PM   #321
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PatrickM View Post
I'm curious about one thing. On one of the threads (here, KTM Talk or somewhere) there was mention about the cause of such wear being due to some sort of vibrational issue. That by greasing the countershaft, you reduce that type of wear, and pretty much eliminate it.

Any ideas on that?
I grease mine because I read that here too and hell why not. I don't see it being an issue or as much as one for us as we have the cush system in the clutch. Not that it eliminates that hammering but I'm sure it's a much better system of protection for the drive train post clutch.

That fuel consumption formula is a little off. I wont say its 6 gph but an average fuel consumption isn't why its rated. I think its more for WOT conditions.

"you're going too fast" ... what????
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Old 06-15-2013, 11:13 PM   #322
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PatrickM View Post
I think it also matters at what PSI the filter will flow it's rate. It may be rated at 6 GPM, at 150 PSI but unless you have a fuel pump pushing at that rate, you may see a lower rate. So if our fuel pumps are pushing at a maximum of 50 PSI, then we could see a flow rate of 1/3rd or 2 GPM max.

And as you mentioned, as it gets dirty/clogged, the effectiveness of the flow rate would decrease requiring a greater PSI to get the same flow rate. Assuming we can't get past 50 PSI, it could be further reduced to the 1 GPM mark.

But like you alluded to, if you're burning a gallon a minute... you're going too fast.
Nice conversation and calculations......coming from a world of sterile filtration, flow rates and particulate accumulation were exactly on target for my inquiries.....so recommended replacement intervals for the OEM vs replacements suggested becomes my question....will the cheap filters need more frequent replacement?
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Old 06-19-2013, 08:56 AM   #323
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Harcus, I could care less if your math is off a little. I'm just impressed with your math skills. Fine job! BTW, on a recent trip to Baja I averaged 35 mpg. I wasn't impressed, but we were traveling kind of fast!
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Old 06-22-2013, 06:38 PM   #324
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Originally Posted by LukasM View Post
+1000, even if I keep repeating myself...

Show me a high-ish mileage powerful KTM/Berg that has been dual sported, and I'll show you a worn countershaft that requires splitting the engine to replace. Cush hubs are a good investment, period.

RAD and Haan are more bling, but OEM (stock on older LC4 640s will fit all 125-660) works fine. Avoid Talon as they use an inferior damping system.

525:




530:




570:






We'll see the same thing happening on the 500 when they start accumulating enough miles.
Picture of counter shaft spline condition.
2102 KTM 500 EXC 6526 Mi. 254 Hrs. 70% street, 30% dirt.
Spline has been greased for last 3000 miles. Before that I didn't grease the splines. A new counter shaft sprocket has minimal play on the shaft and an old one is slightly looser.
No cush drive on the rear wheel.
I use Knobbys D606's on the street and dirt.
Time will tell.
KEEP THE SPLINES GREASED
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Old 06-22-2013, 11:01 PM   #325
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bengt Phorks View Post
Picture of counter shaft spline condition.
2102 KTM 500 EXC 6526 Mi. 254 Hrs. 70% street, 30% dirt.
Spline has been greased for last 3000 miles. Before that I didn't grease the splines. A new counter shaft sprocket has minimal play on the shaft and an old one is slightly looser.
No cush drive on the rear wheel.
I use Knobbys D606's on the street and dirt.
Time will tell.
KEEP THE SPLINES GREASED
His point is still valid.
While your '12 500 EXC does *not* have a cush hub in the rear wheel ... it *does* have a cush hub in the DDS clutch.
While that is not as fool-proof/rugged as a true rear-wheel, cush hub ... it does help cushion the shock on the countershaft and drive train.

Not trying to pick sides or arguments ... just thinkin' out loud.

Cheers! E-Ticket
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E-Ticket2 screwed with this post 06-23-2013 at 10:24 AM
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Old 06-23-2013, 02:46 AM   #326
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Bengt my 525shaft in the pic above did not start showing wear until after the 250 mark and then rapidly degraded. Hope yours fares better. By chance was there a rusty film on the splines before wiping it down for the pic?
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Old 06-24-2013, 01:03 AM   #327
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Bengt my 525shaft in the pic above did not start showing wear until after the 250 mark and then rapidly degraded. Hope yours fares better. By chance was there a rusty film on the splines before wiping it down for the pic?
No rust was found on the splines. I just cleaned the grease off for the picture.
My comment about the rear wheel cush drive was only to say that I didn't have one on the bike.

Some thoughts. As the spline wears from fretting, which is a process of molecular level welding and breaking of the welds and that is the red dust you see, then the spline allows the sprocket to rotate slightly fore and aft as the bike accelerates and decelerates. This causes a hammering effect which causes mechanical wear in addition to the fretting. As the process continue things go from bad to worse. Greasing the splines stops the fretting process so that the second process never gets started or takes much longer to happen.

The bolt that holds the sprocket on the countershaft has a high torque for the size of bolt that is used and this may stop the rocking movement between the spline/countershaft. The torque for this bolt is 60nm - 44.3 ft/lbs and over tightening it can leave a broken bolt in the countershaft. That is not a good situation so I tighten it to about 30ft/lbs. On my 87 Husky 430, the counter sprocket is held on with a circlip. It also had a much larger diameter countershaft . After about 30 thousand miles there is only minimal wear on the spline. ( I rode the bike a lot, all dirt, and I still have it.) Maybe their spline engineer was better at his job.

The cush drive in the KTM may have been put in to allow the bike to be more street friendly but only the engineers know the real answer.

I will keep an eye on the spline wear and post results in the future.
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Old 06-24-2013, 11:18 AM   #328
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I broke my kickstand on the first day of an 8 day 1330 mile ride in Nevada last week. Does anyone have a suggestion on which aftermarket unit to buy?
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Old 06-24-2013, 11:56 AM   #329
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I broke my kickstand on the first day of an 8 day 1330 mile ride in Nevada last week. Does anyone have a suggestion on which aftermarket unit to buy?
How did it break? Crash?
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Old 06-24-2013, 12:49 PM   #330
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I parked the bike on a gravel shoulder of a paved road while waiting for the rest of my group to catch up. I bumped the bike and it fell over onto the same side as the stand. The kickstand folded up under the bike. It sort of ripped it right at the bolt. I took it off and carried in my luggage for the rest of the trip. I just got home last night and have not even unpacked the van yet. I will takes some pics.
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