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Old 06-05-2012, 08:09 AM   #121
ABYSS
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Pn

Quote:
Originally Posted by 5hunge View Post
Thanks Abyss,
Any part number for the stainless filter?


http://www.scottsonline.com/products...ype=3&Bike=Ktm


Scotts part # is 2149
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Old 06-05-2012, 09:01 AM   #122
Sparrowhawk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ABYSS View Post
the biggest thing we can do is keep up the flow rate.
I won't argue about filter types but resistance to flow on the outlet side (back pressure) doesn't change oil flow rate.

Rotary positive displacement pumps, such as found on motorcycle oil systems, will pump a fixed quantity of oil per revolution up until pressures get high enough to cause mechanical failure. Centrifugal pumps, such as found in motorcycle cooling systems, are effected by back pressure.

Different filter media have different advantages and negatives but flow rate in a motorcycle oil system is not effected by the filter chosen because of the pump design.

Sparrowhawk screwed with this post 06-05-2012 at 09:08 AM
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Old 06-05-2012, 09:19 AM   #123
5hunge
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ABYSS View Post
Nice one thanks Abyss

Fantastic to have esp if your stealer is far away
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Old 06-05-2012, 09:24 AM   #124
ABYSS
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparrowhawk View Post
I won't argue about filter types but resistance to flow on the outlet side (back pressure) doesn't change oil flow rate.

Rotary positive displacement pumps, such as found on motorcycle oil systems, will pump a fixed quantity of oil per revolution up until pressures get high enough to cause mechanical failure. Centrifugal pumps, such as found in motorcycle cooling systems, are effected by back pressure.

Different filter media have different advantages and negatives but flow rate in a motorcycle oil system is not effected by the filter chosen because of the pump design.

Please pardon me for not getting defined enough. If the flow is restricted by the filtering media and oil isnt available then it doesnt matter what the pumps capabilites are if there is no oil available . I was not my intention to imply that flow could be improved I was focusing more on restriction challanges.

You hit on a very good point, that further defines the concern for restricted flow. Rotary vane pumps do a fixed QTY but if the available fliud isnt there the pressure drops and that is as bad as pressure rising.

The engines are designed to run with in a specific pressure/volume range and higher or lower than that range has effects across the board from heat to excessive pressure. the more pressure the higher the heat and the hotter the oil stays and the more it breaksdown.

The best place to be is within the range they were desgined for.

it is competely correct that different medias have different advantages and disadvantages.

If you are honest with yourself and objectivley chart them all out the paper filter risk is far higher than the the alternitive.
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Old 06-05-2012, 03:26 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by ABYSS View Post
Please pardon me for not getting defined enough. If the flow is restricted by the filtering media and oil isnt available then it doesnt matter what the pumps capabilites are if there is no oil available . I was not my intention to imply that flow could be improved I was focusing more on restriction challanges.

You hit on a very good point, that further defines the concern for restricted flow. Rotary vane pumps do a fixed QTY but if the available fliud isnt there the pressure drops and that is as bad as pressure rising.

The engines are designed to run with in a specific pressure/volume range and higher or lower than that range has effects across the board from heat to excessive pressure. the more pressure the higher the heat and the hotter the oil stays and the more it breaksdown.

The best place to be is within the range they were desgined for.
My comment was solely in regards to oil flow through the engine as it relates to temperature.

I am not familiar with the oil circuit specific to the new 500. However, if it follows KTM and industry standards oil is picked up by the pump(s) in a low area or sump through a mesh screen and then directed to the filter(s). The two conditions where the pump would be starved for oil is when the engine is low on oil or if the pickup screen became plugged.

Since the oil filters are downstream of the pump(s), they have no influence on the amount of oil available at the intake. Direct displacement pumps combined with a non-compressible fluid don't care about resistance. A hydraulic floor jack working within its design specification will raise the exact same amount per pump stroke whether it is unweighted or lifting an Abrams tank. The choice of oil filter media will have no influence on the quantity of oil flowing through the circuit at a given RPM.

That doesn't mean that restricted oil filter flow isn't a cause for concern. It also doesn't mean that less than normal resistance can't be a cause for concern. Modern high-performance motorcycle engines with multiple oil pumps and multiple filters have complicated oil circuits and flow to various parts of the engine are balanced by oil jet size, bearing surface specifications, pressure regulators, bypass valves, etc..

For example, the KTM 690 picks up oil with the primary pump which sends it through the primary oil filter. From there the circuit splits and goes both to 1. the valve train, part of the gearbox, and clutch, and 2. through a secondary filter to the crankshaft. Oil circuit pressure is controlled by a regulator in the valve train side of things. So, the primary oil pump will push a specific quantity of oil through the primary filter regardless of what it's made of. After that, the direction of flow in the oil circuit is controlled to some degree by the resistance through the secondary oil filter. If resistance is high, the crank will get less oil than it should. If resistance is too low, the valve train could get less oil than it should.

You are exactly correct that "engines are designed to run with in a specific pressure/volume range and higher or lower than that range has effects across the board ". An oil filter more free-flowing than OEM may or may not be a good thing. It's more complicated than that.

KTM 690 oil circuit:

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Old 06-06-2012, 01:22 AM   #126
5hunge
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Found this...
MX Pro Stainless steel lifetime oil filter.
Constructed from highest quality medical stainless steel mesh.
Filters down to 35 microns.
Outperforms standard paper filter by as much as 200%.
Superior high flow rate under all temperature conditions.
Cleanable and reusable.
Will not fall apart like paper filters
Used by F1 the most technically advanced performance engines made.

Here
http://www.motocrossparts.co.nz/moto...es.php?id=2519
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Old 06-06-2012, 07:33 AM   #127
ABYSS
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ok

Quote:
Originally Posted by 5hunge View Post
Found this...
MX Pro Stainless steel lifetime oil filter.
Constructed from highest quality medical stainless steel mesh.
Filters down to 35 microns.
Outperforms standard paper filter by as much as 200%.
Superior high flow rate under all temperature conditions.
Cleanable and reusable.
Will not fall apart like paper filters
Used by F1 the most technically advanced performance engines made.

Here
http://www.motocrossparts.co.nz/moto...es.php?id=2519
I already have Scotts but it looks very similar. for the EURO guys that man be a easier choice as it isnt in the US.
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Old 06-06-2012, 07:44 AM   #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparrowhawk View Post
SNIP...

You are exactly correct that "engines are designed to run with in a specific pressure/volume range and higher or lower than that range has effects across the board ". An oil filter more free-flowing than OEM may or may not be a good thing. It's more complicated than that.
I know

There is much more definition but the fact remains as you stated earlier the pump put out a fixed QTY. Just because a filter is more free flowing it doesnt have a negitive effect as the ports and passages will still fill up with filtered oil and that will create the perscribed pressure back pressure.
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Old 06-06-2012, 10:37 AM   #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lulu7404 View Post
I cannot attest to long term yet, but I changed the oil at 1 hour and 3 hours. Much less metal in second oil change. Coming up on 20 hours and I will do it again. After that, since I mostly commute on it, it will be around 20 hours, or 1500 miles. Headed to Ouray, CO for 4th of July week and plan on riding the Alpine Loop as well as some other challenging terrain. I will change the oil before and after that trip. Going forward I am just gonna asses how hard the motor was used. It's all about what the motor, and therefore, the oil has been through. These are wet clutch, so the oil lubricates the engine and tranny and clutch. With a capacity of 1.5 liters if you keep the revs high and get into some nasty stuff that keeps the engine temp high, change the oil more frequently.
So far during my commute, the fan doesn't come on, so I don't think it is being worked too hard. As far as exotic oil goes. I have been told that Mobil 1 motorcycle specific oil is good to go and can be found at Autozone. Also heard that Rotella T diesel oil is good. I still have the last bit of Motorex that I bought with the bike and will most likely switch to Mobil 1 at 20 hours.
Oil cooler will help in two ways. Keep oil cooler of course, but also increase the capacity. Which is the main reason for frequent oil changes anyway.
Just my .02 anyway.
thanks for all that. helps alot. But: I hate sounding like a newb (but I am) I still have no clue what an hour is in terms of wear. I am used to thinking of miles driven.
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Old 06-06-2012, 10:42 AM   #130
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Fyi

Quote:
Originally Posted by BaronVonDarrin View Post
thanks for all that. helps alot. But: I hate sounding like a newb (but I am) I still have no clue what an hour is in terms of wear. I am used to thinking of miles driven.


you bike has a hour meter on it
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Old 06-06-2012, 12:13 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by ABYSS View Post
you bike has a hour meter on it
I do not know what an 'hour' is though in regards to a bike. What is that a measurement of? total operation time?
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Old 06-06-2012, 12:15 PM   #132
ABYSS
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Ert

Quote:
Originally Posted by BaronVonDarrin View Post
I do not know what an 'hour' is though in regards to a bike. What is that a measurement of? total operation time?


if the engine time is running the hour meter is a ticking
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Old 06-06-2012, 09:41 PM   #133
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Trail Testing

Just to refocus on why I started this thread...The question was...How will this bike preform as a lightweight Dual Sport?

I recently spent several days on mine testing it in the Uintas of Utah. Here is the ride report...

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showt...9#post18855459

The short version? All went very well!

556 miles in 2 days, all types of terrain ...single track, sand roads, pavement, etc

An unbelievable 66 MPG overall mileage. (yes, it is stock ECU / settings with only the mods mentioned previously in this thread)

Carried 56 lbs of gear in the (2) 22 liter panniers & on the rack. No problems, nothing shook loose, no failures, etc.

Conclusion - The bike & setup exceeded my expectations! I know, I sound like a KTM salesman. That is not intentional but...it works so well!
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Old 06-07-2012, 02:48 AM   #134
brich
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Klr 650

Quote:
Originally Posted by hammerinn101 View Post
every 15 hours is that true? Sat on one yesterday, needs seat, needs lighting, seems like a lot of money and maintenance. Nobody makes a bike that fits my needs or i have to put another $5000.00 into it to make close. What i want.

1. Big gas tank 6 gal
2. 3500 miles between oil changes
4. Valve adjustment if any 10,000 or better
5. Run on third world gas
6. Electric start and kicker
7. Seat for all day riding
8. Points to put on racks
9. Plug in for extras ,hate the word farckle
10. Color options
11. Can do 100mph
12 can go off road

any suggestions ?
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Old 06-07-2012, 03:09 AM   #135
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harcus & all,

I've enjoyed reading all of your threads on the 2012 KTM 500 EXC. I especially enjoyed the ride review of you and your fellow Utard ( I have family in Utard).

A few things I noticed that raised some questions for me: First, I noticed that one of the first things you did was de-smogg, which as we all know is must for KTM's EXC models. I recently read a review of the bike (dirt rider I think) that stated the 2012 KTM EXC is the first EXC model that they tested that didn't need to be de-smogged. In fact, they highly encouraged new onwers not to de-smogg as they said it was made to run and run well right out of the box without de-smogging. They added that they actually had problems with it when they tried de-smogging. What are your thoughts on this?

Second, I saw some scuttlebutt (sorry, former Marine) in this thread about which 500 model to buy, the 500 EXC or the 500 XCW. Certainly, the XCW model is a bit cheaper, but one would need to spend a pretty penny to make it street legal like the EXC. I live in the Seattle area and the law for licensing dirtbikes just changed allowing us to plate them but it is still very strict. Being a former motocrosser, I love the snap and pop of the non EXC models such as the XCW but want the freedom of the plate. I either didn't see much follow up to this topic or I missed it, which is probably more likely. Does anyone have any input with respect to this topic.

Thanks again to harcus and the rest of you for thought in this thread, I love this forum!

Quote:
Originally Posted by harcus View Post
The purpose of this thread is to summarize the setup of a 500 EXC into a lightweight dual sport machine. This was a major reason for my purchase of this machine.

Disclaimer - I make & sell upgrade conversion parts at Globetrottin.com. Hopefully this is not considered a conflict of interest.

I purchased one of these critters from my local dealer here in Salt Lake in mid Oct 2012. Here it is in the back yard on the first day home (complete with "fly swatter" mirrors)....



One week later, I went out & trashed it for 120 miles for a breakin run. Also collected data on what worked & what didn't. The weather was going bad & I feared not many "data collection" days remained.

First thing I did upon return was a Desmog. This was based on the typical fuel canister issues we all know of & love. The desmog is detailed here...

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showt...682150&page=17

Another thing learned was how vulnerable the radiators were. I need a brace...onto the list.

So, here is the list so far of planned changes. Some of this is based off of my experience is setting up my 07 990 Adv for similar off road use.

1. Bash plate, full coverage

2. Extended fuel tank forward - Maybe a 13 - 15 liter, not too big

3. Extended fuel tank aft - Somehow integrated into the luggage rack system

4. Luggage rack system - Capability to carry about 40-50 lbs

5. Weather proof soft panniers for rack

6. Radiator brace - Noted

7. Heated grips - Maybe PWM controlled to minimize power impact

8. Bar risers - Need about 1.3 inches to fit my 6' 1" frame

9. Head lights - Worst hi beam I have seen in years - Add LED light system

10. Windshield, DS - I have a dual sport WS I have been developing.

11. Seat - Don't know improvement, maybe

12. Subframe of composite with integrated rack - The OEM alum subframe & plastic are beautiful bu not made for creek crossings or much load.

13. Handguards - OEMs are whimpy. Most after markets aren't much better.

14. Fuel tank side bags - Seem to work well on the big bike

There are probably more items I will discover along the way but that is enough for now.

What do I love about this bike? It's a near 60 HP Schwinn. Beautiful suspension, light weight, every thing (almost) that I expected. It weighed in at 266 lbs with a near full fuel tank (2.25 gal) on my Weight Watchers scales. Assuming I can keep the weight of the mods within reason, I will still have a sub 300 lb bike capable of 300 mile range & lightweight camping. This will be 1/2 the weight of my 990 which will allow access to more remote parts of the earth.

That, dear readers, is the point!

So here is the execution of the list. Sorry, the picture won't necessarily be colored in the order above. My ADD issues....


Step 1 - The bash plate


Here it is...







This is what I call full coverage meaning it covers not just the bottom but the rotor & clutch covers. Out here we have these rock things that reach out & attack you. Protect your covers! This is made of composite & weighs slightly over xx lbs.

The fab of this item is detailed for those interested over here...

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=742360



2. Extended fuel tank forward - Maybe a 13 - 15 liter, not too big

Coming soon...


3. Extended fuel tank aft - Somehow integrated into the luggage rack system

Coming soon...


4. Luggage rack system - Capability to carry about 40-50 lbs

Coming soon...


5. Weather proof soft panniers for rack

Coming soon...


6. Radiator brace - Noted

Coming soon...


7. Heated grips - Maybe PWM controlled to minimize power impact

Coming soon...


8. Bar risers - Need about 1.3 inches to fit my 6' 1" frame

Coming soon...


9. Head lights - Worst hi beam I have seen in years - Add LED light system

Coming soon...


10. Windshield, DS - I have a dual sport WS I have been developing.

Coming soon...


11. Seat - Don't know improvement, maybe

Coming soon...

12. Subframe of composite with integrated rack & fuel tanks - The OEM alum subframe & plastic are beautiful but not made for creek crossings or much load.

Coming soon...

13. Handguards - OEMs are whimpy. Most after markets aren't much
better.

Coming soon...


14. Fuel tank side bags - Seem to work well on the big bike

Coming soon...


More to come -------
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