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Old 02-03-2012, 08:59 AM   #166
pfb
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E-470 View Post
We're over 99% accurate with our VTOLLs and License Plate Tolls.
Sorry, meant vtolls not avitolls... point is the same. You read a certain number of plates incorrectly and assign the toll to the wrong person. And if you use the roads even semi regularly, you will lilkey not notice these erroneous charges.
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Old 02-03-2012, 09:14 AM   #167
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"over 99%".

Lets be generous and call it 99.5% accurate.
That means you send a bill incorrectly to 0.5% of plates read.

Looking at your investor documentation from 2008 (and one can only assume your average have increased traffic wise)

DAILY totals:

Plaza A:
North: 21979
South: 22910
Total: 44889

Plaza B:
North: 13638
South: 13939
Total: 27627

Plaza C:
North 8880
South 8379
Total: 17259

Plaza D:
North 10,111
South 11450
Total 21561

Plaza E:
North 8117
South 8762
Total: 16879

So with these 5 toll plazas alone (in 2008):

Total tolls per day: 128,215

99.5% accurate (error of 1/2 of a percent) of that is 641 tolls miss-processed per day.

= 233,965 miss-processed tolls per year (just from those 5 booths)


ok.. sure, a percentage of those will be "invalid plates" but you are still talking about trying to bill 10s of thousands of people incorrectly every year?

My new business model: I'm just going to send out random invoices to random addresses and see how much money I get.
Hey Paul! You owe me 9 bucks...
Hey Chris! You owe me 9 bucks...
Hey Jeff! You owe me 9 bucks...
Hey Jake! You owe me 9 bucks...
...only 637 more to go today...
Oh wait.. that's illegal so *I* can't do that.

Yeah.. its snowing outside

Geek screwed with this post 02-03-2012 at 09:22 AM
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Old 02-03-2012, 09:58 AM   #168
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^ Good point Geek....

Where as I bet wrong tolls with people in the booths were far fewer because well people tend to stop in fear of getting a ticket for running the Express lanes. So I bet it was close to 100% with toll collectors.

But this way, they get extra money...some people will just pay. Some use it too much or live in an area close to the toll road that if they got a bill months later will have NO CLUE so they pay. I live in Monument, I KNOW when I use that road, its not on my way to anything but the airport....I get a bill and I have not been in a year its pretty obvious it is not mine.

If I lived in say Durango, got a bill from E470...all I could hope is for them to try and send it to collections so I could pursue legal action and maybe make it my lottery winning ticket...LOL In time that will be what happens if it has not already and someone been paid off to stay quiet
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Old 02-03-2012, 09:06 PM   #169
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Solution: Write into Colorado law that any violation issued in error shall entitle the recipient to 100 times damages.








Quote:
Originally Posted by Geek View Post
"over 99%".

Lets be generous and call it 99.5% accurate.
That means you send a bill incorrectly to 0.5% of plates read.

Looking at your investor documentation from 2008 (and one can only assume your average have increased traffic wise)

DAILY totals:

Plaza A:
North: 21979
South: 22910
Total: 44889

Plaza B:
North: 13638
South: 13939
Total: 27627

Plaza C:
North 8880
South 8379
Total: 17259

Plaza D:
North 10,111
South 11450
Total 21561

Plaza E:
North 8117
South 8762
Total: 16879

So with these 5 toll plazas alone (in 2008):

Total tolls per day: 128,215

99.5% accurate (error of 1/2 of a percent) of that is 641 tolls miss-processed per day.

= 233,965 miss-processed tolls per year (just from those 5 booths)


ok.. sure, a percentage of those will be "invalid plates" but you are still talking about trying to bill 10s of thousands of people incorrectly every year?

My new business model: I'm just going to send out random invoices to random addresses and see how much money I get.
Hey Paul! You owe me 9 bucks...
Hey Chris! You owe me 9 bucks...
Hey Jeff! You owe me 9 bucks...
Hey Jake! You owe me 9 bucks...
...only 637 more to go today...
Oh wait.. that's illegal so *I* can't do that.

Yeah.. its snowing outside
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Old 02-03-2012, 11:11 PM   #170
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MeterPig View Post
Solution: Write into Colorado law that any violation issued in error shall entitle the recipient to 100 times damages.
As much as I dislike the E-470 toll system, writing general laws to address specific situation rarely ends well... Hell, more laws in general rarely ends well.
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pfb screwed with this post 02-04-2012 at 09:23 AM
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Old 02-04-2012, 08:39 AM   #171
modette
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pfb View Post
As much as I dislike the E-470 toll system, writing general laws to address specific situation ends well... Hell, more laws in general rarely ends well.
I forget the exact % but in MI we have a scanner error law. So when Wally World scans something your buying and it says $10.99 instead of $8.99 You get X amount back right there on the spot. If a shelf is mis-marked, you get the lowest marked price. If they want to fight, you report them to the Attorney General who WILL and DOES go after them....then your talking the store paying huge bucks for FALSE advertising. I noticed in CO stores tend to not mark things correctly (although I been told by the Attorney General here to take a picture and they too will go after the store). even my father in-law is worried about product not in the right place. Once I went to REI here, huge sign said 50% off I pickup a snow shovel (whole stack of them) and said I'll buy this, go upfront and told NO, we walk back and they said Sir it does not mean THOSE it means this one shelf..the sign was above the whole display. In MI I would have been contacting the Attorney General and guess what nowadays with cellphones and picture they be paying $100K fine for FALSE advertising.

So I think a fine system directed at the toll company would work, it works in MI on buying things...stores now don't often mis-label or put things in other products places to make it LOOK like its cheaper then it is. So I can only assume it would work great in this situation too.

Like I said with technology, no reason why they could not print the picture on the invoice of the vehicle they claim is yours, with the second picture being the one that READ the plate. Or at least provide this online when you go to pay. Oh wait then they would not collect on wrong read errors. I bet a lot of money is collected from those that they should have NEVER collected.
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modette screwed with this post 02-04-2012 at 08:47 AM
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Old 02-06-2012, 07:52 AM   #172
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geek View Post
"over 99%".

Lets be generous and call it 99.5% accurate.
That means you send a bill incorrectly to 0.5% of plates read.

Looking at your investor documentation from 2008 (and one can only assume your average have increased traffic wise)

DAILY totals:

Plaza A:
North: 21979
South: 22910
Total: 44889

Plaza B:
North: 13638
South: 13939
Total: 27627

Plaza C:
North 8880
South 8379
Total: 17259

Plaza D:
North 10,111
South 11450
Total 21561

Plaza E:
North 8117
South 8762
Total: 16879

So with these 5 toll plazas alone (in 2008):

Total tolls per day: 128,215

99.5% accurate (error of 1/2 of a percent) of that is 641 tolls miss-processed per day.

= 233,965 miss-processed tolls per year (just from those 5 booths)


ok.. sure, a percentage of those will be "invalid plates" but you are still talking about trying to bill 10s of thousands of people incorrectly every year?

My new business model: I'm just going to send out random invoices to random addresses and see how much money I get.
Hey Paul! You owe me 9 bucks...
Hey Chris! You owe me 9 bucks...
Hey Jeff! You owe me 9 bucks...
Hey Jake! You owe me 9 bucks...
...only 637 more to go today...
Oh wait.. that's illegal so *I* can't do that.

Yeah.. its snowing outside
There are a few facts you're not taking into account. Only about 1/4 of our transactions collected with photos, These transactions are reviewed at least twice (often times more) before mailed on a first bill. The images are reviewed at least another two times (again, sometimes more) when penalties begin getting assessed. Each review of the image is about 99% accurate.

Jake
E-470 Public Highway Authority
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Old 02-06-2012, 10:10 AM   #173
pfb
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E-470 View Post
There are a few facts you're not taking into account. Only about 1/4 of our transactions collected with photos, These transactions are reviewed at least twice (often times more) before mailed on a first bill. The images are reviewed at least another two times (again, sometimes more) when penalties begin getting assessed. Each review of the image is about 99% accurate.

Jake
E-470 Public Highway Authority
Jake,

The point you are missing is that even a 1% error rate on 25% of your total traffic is a huge number of incorrectly sent fines. Coupled with E-470's aggressive collection methods for unpaid fines and you have a not-so-taxpayer-friendly system.

If just look at this thread, you have a relatively low number of total viewers/posters, yet several that have had erroneous tickets. Your response is "just call us... we'll be happy to take care of it!". Not good enough, in my opinion. Your goal should be to drive your error rate to at least 1/10 of what it currently is. Not explain away how a .25% error rate is actually pretty good (it isn't).

If there is any doubt of the accuracy of your VTOLL plate read, DUMP IT. Don't just send it on to whatever plate number you can kinda sorta make it out to be. You'll probably say you already do that, but based on the evidence in this thread, you'd be wrong.
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Old 02-06-2012, 11:15 AM   #174
modette
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pfb View Post
Jake,

The point you are missing is that even a 1% error rate on 25% of your total traffic is a huge number of incorrectly sent fines. Coupled with E-470's aggressive collection methods for unpaid fines and you have a not-so-taxpayer-friendly system.

If just look at this thread, you have a relatively low number of total viewers/posters, yet several that have had erroneous tickets. Your response is "just call us... we'll be happy to take care of it!". Not good enough, in my opinion. Your goal should be to drive your error rate to at least 1/10 of what it currently is. Not explain away how a .25% error rate is actually pretty good (it isn't).

If there is any doubt of the accuracy of your VTOLL plate read, DUMP IT. Don't just send it on to whatever plate number you can kinda sorta make it out to be. You'll probably say you already do that, but based on the evidence in this thread, you'd be wrong.
I agree with you. Not to mention it just makes it look even worst when he says they do check and recheck photos all the time. So are people not doing a good job at checking? I might post over on the CO Sport bike forum and see how many of those people have had error billings.

I just did...I bet I see Jake there defending their toll system
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Old 02-06-2012, 11:44 AM   #175
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I never knew it was toll until after I got home in NM and got a bill.
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Old 04-29-2012, 08:42 AM   #176
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I started a new thread cause I'm an asshole and didn't find this one.

I guess I pay the fine and vow NEVER to use their FUCKING TOOL (ya ya Toll) lanes again.

waiting in traffic just means I get to listen to KBCO more

If I had an option to get off the tool road I would have

for the $6 something I now "owe" I completely pissed and not willing to EVER support a tool road if given the option.

Jake thanks for answering the questions of what happens when the people vote in a private co to do the govt job



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Old 04-29-2012, 08:57 AM   #177
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Yes it is expensive. However, is is the first to be plowed often and the only highway to remain clear when there is a storm. They have an army of plows for this one road. And it is usually clear. There are exits every few miles so it's pretty easy to get off.
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Old 04-29-2012, 11:51 AM   #178
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The only way I'd use 470 at those prices is if I could drive 120mph on it. As it stands I will drive out of my way to avoid it.
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Old 04-30-2012, 08:13 AM   #179
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mattjw916 View Post
The only way I'd use 470 at those prices is if I could drive 120mph on it. As it stands I will drive out of my way to avoid it.
I do have to agree that it should be like the autobahn to get people to use it...maybe a 90mph speed limit.Oh wait Police will never go for that, probably site how there be more accidents without real proof of that.
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Old 04-30-2012, 11:40 AM   #180
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That would be fantastic.

It's not patrolled after midnight anyway-you might get the random cop but it's a ghostown after 10. I used to drive it t 0200 daily. More deer than people.
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