ADVrider

Go Back   ADVrider > Bikes > Thumpers
User Name
Password
Register Inmates Photos Site Rules Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 01-07-2015, 05:53 AM   #1
Brewsky88 OP
Adventurer
 
Brewsky88's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2014
Location: Guam
Oddometer: 16
DR650 Electrical issue

A little background, I just did a frame-up overhaul on this bike (didn't tear down the engine though, only 18k miles). When I got it back together and went to fire it up the relay was buzzing but it would crank slowly, if I pull the plugs out it has no problem spinning so my first thought was the battery, bought a new one and put it in, same problem, next thought was the relay so I bought a new one of those, still doing it. Here is a video I took tonight, click the picture to play:


Now before anyone says that it isn't getting enough power, it is hooked directly to an 800CCA red top Optima that has plenty of juice to start a 4.0L I6 from 12.8VDC, there is MORE than enough to light off a 650cc single jug with said 4.0L running and charging at 14.2VDC
Brewsky88 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2015, 07:30 AM   #2
CNRED
It'll be OK
 
Joined: Feb 2008
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
Oddometer: 618
It does sound weak.
I think I would check the ground. If you painted or powder coated the frame, make sure all of the ground points are all clean, metal to metal contacts.
If that is not the case, I'd look at the started next.
Strange that you were not haveing this problem before you did the tear down.
__________________
IBA #48202
2011 WR250r
CNRED is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2015, 07:57 AM   #3
RideFreak
Green Chile Eater
 
RideFreak's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2009
Location: Out in the NM Dez somewhere
Oddometer: 6,472
Yeah, it sounds like you've introduced resistance into the system, possibly a poor connection. The fact that your solenoid is clicking with a known good source indicates it's not getting enough power through the system to stay fully engaged. Since you have the jumper cables out it's really easy to track down, Ground the neg to the motor, preferably the starter casing. Try it again, if it spins correctly your problem is in the ground side of the circuit, possibly where the battery grounds to the frame. If that doesn't work, put the negative on the battery and then take the (+) jumper lead and starting at the solenoid output pole, touch it and see what happens, then go down to the (+) pole right on the starter and touch it there. If it's a connection problem, at one of those test s you'll have normal starting. That's referred to as half stepping troubleshooting; elimination of possible causes with the least amount of checks by eliminating half of the circuit in one step, credit goes to uncle sammys canoe club

My bet is on the negative side, poor connections or bad cables can act just like a low battery. If you have any gas leaking from the carb don't perform those checks at the starter, hate for you to burn the house down
__________________
Chris
"Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but to rather skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ... Holy Shit, what a ride!"
CL Adventure Ride 2013 /CL Revisited 2014 / 700 Miles of Scenic Utah Backcountry / MY VIDEOS / RIDEFREAK TV
RideFreak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2015, 05:10 AM   #4
Brewsky88 OP
Adventurer
 
Brewsky88's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2014
Location: Guam
Oddometer: 16
Ran through most of them already but just to make sure

Quote:
Originally Posted by RideFreak View Post
Ground the neg to the motor, preferably the starter casing.
Clicking when starter button pressed

Quote:
Put the negative on the battery and then take the (+) jumper lead and starting at the solenoid output pole.
Slow crank

Quote:
Then go down to the (+) pole right on the starter and touch it there.
Slow crank

Quote:
Credit goes to uncle sammys canoe club.
Good ol' USN I presume? Active Seabee myself.

I think I've eliminated all possibilities except the starter. Gonna take it out this weekend and open her up for a cleaning, if that doesn't do it then I have no clue. Being that the starter was out and sitting for a couple months while I did the rebuild in the lovely Guam humidity, I'm willing to bet she'll be a bit grody inside.
Brewsky88 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2015, 08:45 AM   #5
RideFreak
Green Chile Eater
 
RideFreak's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2009
Location: Out in the NM Dez somewhere
Oddometer: 6,472
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brewsky88 View Post
Ran through most of them already but just to make sure


Clicking when starter button pressed


Slow crank


Slow crank


Good ol' USN I presume? Active Seabee myself.

I think I've eliminated all possibilities except the starter. Gonna take it out this weekend and open her up for a cleaning, if that doesn't do it then I have no clue. Being that the starter was out and sitting for a couple months while I did the rebuild in the lovely Guam humidity, I'm willing to bet she'll be a bit grody inside.
One last check, put both leads to the starter and see of you get a fast crank, basically eliminating everything else, I've seen starters installed in such a way as they're bound up a little, I'm not familiar with the DR setup but that might be a possability.

Yup, 22yrs in the club, 2 years in Guam, the humidity & salt air is a bitch. Do you ever ride up past Nimitz hill where the old WW2 tank is at? I didn't have a dirtbike while I was there but though it'd be cool to explore the jungle in that area.
__________________
Chris
"Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but to rather skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ... Holy Shit, what a ride!"
CL Adventure Ride 2013 /CL Revisited 2014 / 700 Miles of Scenic Utah Backcountry / MY VIDEOS / RIDEFREAK TV

RideFreak screwed with this post 01-08-2015 at 08:51 AM
RideFreak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2015, 12:23 PM   #6
Beezer
Beastly Adventurer
 
Joined: Oct 2004
Location: Anchorage, formerly Spenard (hub of the universe)
Oddometer: 5,946
a chattering relay often indicates a short.... the relay energizes and connects a load... but something down stream is shorted, that causes the voltage to drop to a point where the relay can not stay closed, so it pops open.... which lets the voltage rise to a point where the relay can close.... and repeats at high speed

it indicates either the wiring down stream from the relay or the starter is "boogered" (doesn't have to be shorted).

this assumes a good battery, because a weak battery will do the same thing on a big draw. boiled down, whats happening is the load is bigger than the power source, it drops the voltage to the point where the relay drops out
__________________
if I'm answering your question, I assume all the obvious points have been addressed, such as " did you do a compression check?" and "is it still on fire?"

Beezer screwed with this post 01-08-2015 at 05:38 PM
Beezer is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2015, 02:31 PM   #7
trailer Rails
Beastly Adventurer
 
trailer Rails's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2008
Location: Pittsburgh PA
Oddometer: 4,903
That starter has a bearing in it that can get messed up and cause slow cranking issues.
trailer Rails is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2015, 05:34 PM   #8
Beezer
Beastly Adventurer
 
Joined: Oct 2004
Location: Anchorage, formerly Spenard (hub of the universe)
Oddometer: 5,946
ya... sounds like its dragging. that causes high current, kinda like a short. it due to a thing called counter emf. the slower the motor turns the less "back voltage it makes and the more current it tries to pull from the battery. if the battery can;t supply that current, the voltage will drop (kinda like in ohms law)

heres a vid clip I made a while back trying to explain counter emf. the meter on the right is current, the one on the left is voltage, you'll see current rise quickly, then once the motor turns it will drop way off... the CEMF is proportional to RPM... faster it turns, the less current will flow

__________________
if I'm answering your question, I assume all the obvious points have been addressed, such as " did you do a compression check?" and "is it still on fire?"
Beezer is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2015, 06:08 AM   #9
Brewsky88 OP
Adventurer
 
Brewsky88's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2014
Location: Guam
Oddometer: 16
I have yet to ride since my stranding at the gas station. Still having the same issue even with a couple new parts. Just to re-cap;

-Strong Yuasa battery that holds a charge at 12.8vDC when hooked up and the trickle charger disconnected
-Battery drops only to 10.7-10.8vDC when cranking
-Brand new voltage regulator
-Brand new 250W stator
-New-ish wiring harness out of a parted out 2012
-Brand new starter relay
-Brand new brushes and bearings in the starter
-Clutch safety switch removed and leads plugged into each other
-Kickstand safety switch removed and leads joined with solder and shrink wrap
-Kickstand switch relay removed and leads joined with solder and shrink wrap
-Diode removed and leads joined with solder and shrink wrap
-Ground cable cleaned to a near polish with emery cloth on both battery AND engine mount eyelets (yes the engine ground is against the bolt head and not between the painted case and the CS seal retainer)
-Handlebar kill switch disassembled and cleaned with emery cloth
-New 12/24vDC starter push button
-Every length of wire in the starting circuit tested for continuity, none of which reading more than 0.2Ω
-Starter spins at full power when the relay is jumped
-Starter almost torques out of my hand when not bolted in but with wires hooked up and the starter button pressed
-Engine turns via the starter button but the relay STILL BUZZES when the cylinder comes up on compression

The only thing that hasn't been done is put a whole new starter in, armature and all

I feel I have triple checked just about every possible point that could be causing this problem and then checked them again to make sure I didn't miss anything. I'm pretty sure I have the wiring diagram memorized.

If there is ANYTHING that ANYONE can think of that I may have missed or that I did wrong, by all means please let me know. But please actually read everything to eliminate redundancy. I have posted my updates on other forums and the first 3 responses were along the lines of "Jump the relay, if the bike cranks then it's the relay, if it doesn't then it's the starter."

I love riding and I love this bike but I haven't been able to enjoy either in months because of this nasty electrical gremlin. I can't possibly be the only person with this issue, I've seen posts about just a single relay click or a relay chatter with no cranking, I seem to be the only person posting on the forums with a slow crank/relay chatter COMBINATION. All of the click/chatter solutions are nearly useless because my bike actually cranks and all of the slow crank solutions are nearly useless because of the relay chatter AND the fact that I get solid fast cranking when the relay is jumped.
Brewsky88 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2015, 09:11 AM   #10
micko01
another DR650 rider
 
micko01's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2010
Location: RTW, currently Kenya
Oddometer: 279
I had a similar thing recently with my partners DR. Not sure if you've done this yet, but I pulled the starter apart, pulled the armature out of the housing and cleaned the inside of the housing. The armature was binding in carbon and giving exactly the same symptoms as yours. Cleaned it up as she spins perfect again.
micko01 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2015, 09:26 AM   #11
trailrider383
867-5309
 
trailrider383's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2008
Location: NP, ID
Oddometer: 3,393
So rebuilding the starter cured the slow cranking? When the relay is taken out of the equation?

The coil in the relay isn't holding the relay contacts together tight so it chatters. So the coil in the relay is bad or you aren't getting good voltage/current to the coil in the relay. To eliminate any of the wiring on the positive side of the bike take a jumper wire and operate the relay or use a remote starter switch like this:


But you could still have a wiring problem on the negative side of the relay circuit.

My wiring diagram shows the positive side has a yellow/green wire for positive and black/white for the ground. The shop manual also mentions this when testing the relay: "Do not apply a battery voltage more than 5 seconds to the starter relay as it may overheat and cause damage to the relay coil"
__________________
DO WHAT YOU LIKE - LIKE WHAT YOU DO
Explain to me again why enjoying life when I retire is more important than enjoying life now?
trailrider383 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2015, 03:10 AM   #12
Brewsky88 OP
Adventurer
 
Brewsky88's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2014
Location: Guam
Oddometer: 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by micko01 View Post
Not sure if you've done this yet, but I pulled the starter apart, pulled the armature out of the housing and cleaned the inside of the housing.
After rebuilding that starter already, I'm tired of screwing with it, new one on the way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by trailrider383 View Post
The shop manual also mentions this when testing the relay: "Do not apply a battery voltage more than 5 seconds to the starter relay as it may overheat and cause damage to the relay coil"
I may have damaged the relay by jumping it previously trying to eliminate parts of the circuit. Sometimes it sticks closed and keeps the bikes cranking after I let go of the button. So a new one of those is on the way too. Which will bring the total up to everything in the electrical system replaced completely except the coil which still has plenty of power to shock the #?*! out of me while doing my Air/Fuel/Compression/Spark check when I first had the problem
Brewsky88 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2015, 04:53 AM   #13
Brewsky88 OP
Adventurer
 
Brewsky88's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2014
Location: Guam
Oddometer: 16
Got her runnin'!!! I had the main wires switched. There are 3 heavy gauge wires...all black unfortunately (which is how I made the mistake). The proper order is:

-Shorty goes from battery pos to the relay

This is where it gets tricky

-Long wire with the 90 end goes from the relay to the starter
-Other long wire with a little nub of a Bk/Wt goes from battery neg to ground and that nub ties in the rest of the wiring harness to primary ground

I had the 2 long wires switched causing the relay to try to push full power to the starter, only to have that ground wire get in the way. Swapped those 2 and she runs like a champ, solid strong cranking. Got her completely put back together and did a test ride...not recommended in a rainy area without a front fender (ask me how I know). Tomorrow I'm gonna cruise around and also dig into a couple other minor electrical gremlins, left blinker doesn't work now and neither does low-beam but those will be easy fixes. Now I can start taking on some of these riding challenges.



Anyone in the market for a brand new starter and relay? Never installed.
Brewsky88 is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Share

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

.
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


Times are GMT -7.   It's 11:17 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ADVrider 2011-2015